From: Joe Jenkins (joe_jenkins@yahoo.com)
Date: Mon Aug 24 1998 - 10:14:20 MDT
---Randall R Randall <rrandall6@juno.com> wrote:
>
> --
> On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:41:02 -0400 "John Clark"
<jonkc@worldnet.att.net>
> writes:
>
> >Randall R Randall <rrandall6@juno.com> August 21, 1998
> >
> >>It does seem odd that he'd [John] suddenly reverse his position
> >>with so little warning, doesn't it? ;-)
> >
> >Reversed my position? When? Where? I always said that death means
having
> a
> >last thought, and provided you have up to date backup, you can't
have a
> last
> >thought. In the thought experiment proposed for Mr. 87 and the 99
other
> >copies the last 10 hours of their life was heading for a dead end
and a
> >last thought, this was not true for Mr. Original, hence the
asymmetry.
>
> Depends on your assumptions, no? If you assume that all
> the copies are the same person, then they aren't having a
> *last* thought, but only a few that are unrelated to the next,
> exactly as a person with amnesia might. If you begin by
> assuming that they are *not* the same person, then all of
> the copies have a last thought. This seems to me to be a
> pretty clear reversal, since you have previously argued that
> the copies in a situation like this are all manifestations of one
One of the fundamental premises of uploading is accepting the idea
that your identity is preserved if an emulation of all relevant
physical processes of your mind is preserved. If you accept this
definition of identity you must also accept all of the counter
intuitive implications that come with it. Judging from the responses
on this thread, I believe the majority of extropians/transhumanists
either accept this definition of identity while denying the logical
conclusions of it, or reject it outright. It worries me that John
Clark, someone well known for his extraordinary ability to tackle
counter intuitive issues, is unwilling to follow his own definition of
identity to its logical conclusions. To me, these issues are so
fundamental to what I thought was extropianism/transhumanism, I now
wonder if there should be another ism that includes this definition of
identity and its logical conclusions in its principles/statement of
purpose. Although, I would much prefer these two ism, who both tout
uploading, to stand up, pronounce, and explain some of its counter
intuitive conclusions. Otherwise, converts will be left on their own
capacity to grapple with these issues, usually with very confusing and
inconsistent results. This can be disorienting to say the least. So
many otherwise rational people become an emotional wreck when dealing
with these issues. Witness the following:
---mark@unicorn.com wrote:
> This is not a copy we're talking about, this is you. Sure, the you
is a
> copy of some other you, but this isn't the original wondering
whether a
> copy of himself will kill itself, but another you having to kill
itself
> after a few hours.
>
> To clarify that statement: there is a very, very big difference
between
> sitting there happily in the duplication machine having decided that
the
> copy will kill itself and knowing that you're safe, and being the copy
> and deciding to kill yourself. Unless you're already borderline
suicidal
> I can't see you doing it. Most people talk a lot bigger than they act,
> and the instant the copy realises he's the one slated to die in a few
> hours he's almost certainly going to have a change of heart.
> person, rather than people in their own right.
>
Mark, I appreciate and empathize with your comments. However, in so
far as the safety and reliability of the technology is trusted
"[having] a change of heart" is totally irrational. I will continue
to post messages that accentuate the counter intuitive results from
following the definition of identity implied in uploading to its
logical conclusions. Max, what about those principles?
Joe Jenkins
joe_jenkins@yahoo.com
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