From: Arjen Kamphuis (mountain@knoware.nl)
Date: Sun Dec 21 1997 - 18:11:47 MST
I already did the guns-discussion once on this list so I've stayed out of
it so far. I feel obliged to make a few comments here however, after this
I'll start preparing for my X-mas/newyear trip in the Alps.
At 13:31 21-12-97 -0500 Michael Lorrey wrote:
>Show me one western european country, and you can include Canada, where
>the national Constitution, if one happens to exist, explicitly
>acknowledges that all political power derives from individuals, and is
>delegated to the government by the consent of the people. France might
>be one, but all of the others have peacefully transformed themselves
>from monarchies to constitutional monarchies, to parliamentary
>democracies, and in the fine print, you will always find a clause that
>states that ultimate political power has been granted by God to the
>monarchy, and the monarchy has delegated this to the people. Any nation
>that has this Natural Law "divine right of kings" clause is a nation
>where the people are NOT free, they are merely being treated "extra
>special" by the true power.
I'm certainly no legal expert but my rights of free speech, assembly, a
fair trail, legal representation and so on are guaranteed by the Dutch
constitution.
If a group of politicians or the Monarchy ever tried to seize power they
simply would not get any cooperation from the police or the military
because those are the same citizens that democratically voted a
social-democrat into power. They live in the same neighborhoods as the
people who's rights they would be trampling. Their children go to the same
schools as the children of their new 'political enemies' (everybody else).
The fine-tuned machine of our economy would grind to a halt very quickly.
They are also sworn to defend the principles and rights as stated in the
constitution (and not The Queen or such).
We have a Queen because we like it that way, she's a nice person, wears
funny hats and relieves our governement officals from a lot of ribbon
cutting and such so they can get on with their work. She also attracts a
lot of tourist revenue and has no real political power (and that is the way
it should be).
>Non-AMericans just can't seem to understand how importatant this
>prinicple is, nor do many americans today. People think that if the
>government observes a particular political right of the people as a
>matter of form even though it is not legally bound to, that the people
>actually, legally, posess this freedom. Not so. And I am not sorry to be
>delivering this wakeup call, no matter how much you might deny or resist
>its validity.
But aside from legal issues, let's look at the practical implementations.
In the Netherlands:
- I can have a beer or any other drink in any bar from the age of 16.
- I can drive a car from the age of 18.
- I can use almost any drug without fear of gov retaliation of any kind.
- Women can get an abortion if they so wish without having to fear
retaliation from religious right groups
- I can legally take control to end my life if I'm terminally ill.
- I can walk right up to the a MP, Minister or the Premier to ask a question.
- I can own most types of firearms for sporting purposes (no full-auto's).
- I won't have to be afraid of SWAT's BATF's or other dark forces (there
has never been a situation like Waco or Ruby Ridge in this century).
>From what I understand, In the US:
- I can't go to a bar 'till I'm 21.
- I can drive a car from the age of 16.
- I can get arrested for just owning some Pot, Coke or Synthetic drugs.
- I have to fear the FBI, CIA, DAI, NSA, BATF, IRS and a score of other
agency's
- I have a 10 - 30 times greater chance of being killed (depending on how
you interpret the statistics) compare to most European countries.
- I can own most guns in most states (except full-auto's), and carry
concealed (with a license).
So what's this freedom everybody is talking about?
As I have stated before, our little neck of the woods is far from perfect
but even if only half the stories that I read on this list are true it's
the Americans living in a police state, not me.
I just re-read the article 'Amerika, Amerika' that was posted a few days
ago and it makes me sad. If it's true Americans are living in a totally
rotten police state which must be awful. If it's not true the lack of
mutual trust and cohesion in American society is aparently so low that the
term 'society' may not be apliccable any longer. Just some people sharing a
language and a currency, a country going to pieces (that's BAD - remember
Yugoslavia?).
It's a shitty situation any way you look at it.
Instead of worrying about the right to pack a .44 magnum when you're taking
a shower maybe it would be prudent to think about what it is about US
society that makes it neccesary to do so (as opposed to various other
countries). As Kathry stated: The guns should just be a temporary fix
untill we can find some better way of _structurally preventing_ violence.
It seems to have worked here to great extend (guns are a fairly non-issue
in Holland) in spite of our much higher pop.density, cultural and racial
diversity and lower standard of living compared to the US.
And BTW, I used to legally own a rifle (.308), it was for keeping the polar
bears away when traveling in the Arctic. I never needed to fire it at
anything living, most polar bears seem to prefer seals to funny-smelling
tourists ;-). I would still own it if I would have continued those kind of
trips, maybe in a few years...
You have fun with your SKS Anton, I hope you won't ever have to shoot
anything that has a greater than 75% genetic resemblance with yourself.
Wishing everybody a peacefull X-mas and a healty, Extropic newyear!
Greetings,
Arjen Kamphuis
mountain@knoware.nl
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_/ _/
_/ The right of the People to keep and arm bears shall _/
_/ not be infringed. _/
_/ United States Constitution, _/
_/ Second Amedenment V2.0 _/
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