From: Suresh Naidu (snaidu@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca)
Date: Mon Nov 04 1996 - 23:30:01 MST
Suresh Naidu
occaisonal student
math 1a, computer science
Ask not what your brand name can do for you,
but what you can do for your brand name.
On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Ian Goddard wrote:
> At 09:27 PM 11/4/96 -0500, Suresh Naidu wrote:
>
> >> Ian Goddard wrote:
> >> > Allocation of resources by consumer choice, by the voice
> >> > of the people, founded upon the theory and application of private
> >> > property, contract law, and tort liability consistently prove to
> >> > yield maximal social outcomes [SNiP]
> >
> >Vote by the dollar, huh?
>
> > That's not "the voice of the people". That translates into a dollar a
> > vote. The people with the money get the ability to influence the lives of
> > everybody else. So I guess it's the "voice of the people who count"
>
> IAN: You claim that it's "not 'the voice of the people',"
> yet you've not presented an argument to support your claim.
>
> You make the claim and then observe that people with money have
> influence. True enough. You then seem to concede my observation
> in part, that it's the "voice of people who count."
>
> But after all this, my point that the allocation of capital in
> the market is the voice of the people, still holds. The "people
> who count" are the people who the people vote for, the people
> who the people count on.
People with money do not neccessarily get it from the majority of people.
Do you think the majority of people want to pay for sonic toothbrushes?
Only the rich do.
>
> I vote for those who most effectively service my needs. A cruel
> task master am I. My ballots are limited only by the degree to
> which I do or do not service the needs of others. Democracy
> cannot possibly give all candidates an equal share of the
> votes, such would be the logical abolition of the demo-
> cratic process, and yet that's exactly what the soc-
> ialist yearns for.
You have more ballots than most people. If you become rich enough, it
doesn't matter what other people think, you can impose your will on them.
That's what I think will happen with unrestrained capitalism. You will
either get an dictatorial oligarchy with more money than everybody else,
or you willget a traditional Marxist revolution type thing. I don't like
either ofthose things.
>
>
> > Oh, great, and The Words of God(tm), are a good basis for dealing with
> > society. Why should we accept poverty? If we are talkking about such
> > grandiose things as uploading, Dyson Spheres and immortality, why can't
> > we discuss utopias for all. It shouldn't be beyond humanity's grasp.
>
>
> IAN: We'll just wave our magic wand -- utopias for all
> and for all a central planner. The wonders of magic.
>
> It occurs to me that I presented you with evidence that your anarcho-
> socialist ideas required central planners, and you never presented
> a logical argument to defeat that point, in fact I think you just
> avoided it. Nevertheless, here you are plowing full steam ahead
> with your illogical utopias. This therefore forces me to toward
> the conclusion that your not an honest but a magical thinker.
> Did I miss your counter argument?
Going back through the posts I think it was you who dropped off the
argument.
Why is an utopia illogical?
I'm advocating voluntary socialism, pretty much. No I can't
impose this by force, because that's just not right.
I like democracy, but only when there's options for the minority as well
as the majority.
Okay, thought experiment:
We get rid of all coercive institutions, both government and corporations.
Then we see what social structures turn up. You say the natural
relationship between humans is trade. I say it's cooperation. I
think our ability to cooperate was vital to our evolutionary
success.
Only when a small minority obtain power through generally nasty means, can
they tell everybody else that these are the rules they must follow.
Why do you equate the desire for a good life for all with central
planning. I hate and fear government just as much as you do. But I also
hate and fear the business interests which lie to me with their
advertising and poison my water with their pollution. Uggh, there must be
a better way than unrestrained capitalism.
>
> ************************************************************************
> IAN GODDARD <igoddard@erols.com> Q U E S T I O N A U T H O R I T Y
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> VISIT Ian Goddard's Universe -----> http://www.erols.com/igoddard
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Nov 01 2002 - 14:35:49 MST