From: Brett Paatsch (paatschb@ocean.com.au)
Date: Thu Nov 21 2002 - 21:44:18 MST
gts wrote:
> Max M wrote:
>
> > Our ethics should not be based on genetics.
> >
> > To make an extreme point: "If forced pregnancy and rape is a good
> > way to spread my genes, would it then not be god morale to rape
> > and impregnate as many as possible?"
> >
> > Obviously not!
>
> True, obviously not, but then healthy evolved humans do not commit rape.
I think this is wrong. I think rape is a choice that some biologically
healthy and legally sane persons make. If it wasn't a choice there could not
be the "criminal state of mind" necessary to convict them. They would still
be a hazard but they would be treated as mentally ill rather than criminal.
It would be nice (I would like to live in a world where) we could say
truthfully that healthy evolved humans do not rape, but in 2002, this is not
true. Fortunately _most_ humans do not rape, but _some_ do.
It is (I think) a choice they make. And in endeavouring to come up with a
better ethical system, it is to the persons considering that choice that I
would like to be able to put some powerful argument, or illuminating
perspective. I'd like to show that person, that the act of raping per se
(putting aside all considerations of conventional punishment - they can
already do the risk/"reward" calculus themselves) was not in that persons
best interest. I'd like to use something like their inherent or residual
sociability to go after diminishing the perceived "reward" part of the
calculus.
Just as, if a person was about to engage in and iterative set of prisoners
dilemma games, I would like to be able to show them that tit for tat is the
optimal strategy. Bertrand Russell and from what I can see the wealth of
conventional wisdom on ethics would tell me their is no way I can dissuade a
would be rapist with reason alone. And I think I accept this, but I wonder
do I have just reason alone. Or can I in the majority of cases also rely on
finding sufficient residual sociability in the person to tilt the balance of
their choice. This might be the essence of a better ethical system. To be
able to persuade without force a party operating with free choice that a
certain course of action is in their self interest because they are social
as well as rational.
>
> As we agree, we have the genetic trait of compassion.
I can't agree with this. Our genes dictate our development to a substantial
degree. For instance they clearly determine that we are born with large
brains and with a physiology that means we are unable to lift our heads to
feed ourselves and that therefore we could not survive if we were not born
to parents with a predisposition to nurturing and sociability. But whilst
sociability or a propensity for nurturing behaviour may be selected for at
the genetic level (and there is evidence that the maternal instinct is not
an instinct but learnt behaviour) I think we probably need to look to memes
rather than genes to get something as complex as compassion. I could be
wrong. It might be a pleasant surprise to find a compassion gene or even a
set of genes on the genome.
> That genetic trait
> instructs us to avoid the temptation of forcible sex.
Nah, this has gotta be memetic. Consider the Balkan conflict. Systematic
rape was used as a weapon of war and genocide. Memes can be overriden (and
probably were in that case - I doubt the rape squads would have behaved
similarly in their own communities without the sanction of their leaders).
The limitations imposed by genes are much less plastic.
> We put rapists
> behind bars because the majority of humans are compassionate enough to
> consider it a crime.
>
> > So it is not as simple as to say that if we have a genetic
> > advantage in doing something, it makes for a sound set of ethics.
>
> I think there is no genetic advantage in rape in the modern world
> because the genetic advantages of compassion and concern for others is
> greater.
Substitue memetic for genetic in that sentence and maybe package it (chunk
it?) into a coherent argument and perhaps we'd have meme that is teachable
as the "tit for tat" strategy is teachable.
Brett
[Possibly still on a fools errand]
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