From: Avatar Polymorph (avatarpolymorph@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri Oct 04 2002 - 18:40:13 MDT
Rafal wrote:
"Yes, I agree here. However, looking at the problem from
another perspective, Lee's suggestion might be true, too. Contrary to
what Eugen was suggesting, there is qualitative difference between the dog
and the human in cognition - humans can improve their intelligence in a
recursive, controlled manner. And I am not talking merely about pieces of
paper as external memory aids, I mean the technological enhancements to our
physical brains and computers, which will be soon possible, up to and beyond
uploading. In effect, humans, given enough time can rebuild themselves, to
indeed understand anything that can be understood using the resources that
ever would become available to a universally self-enhancing entity.
Of course, one might protest that this would not constitute
human understanding, just as our thoughts are not really the
expression of a will for understanding that a Homo habilis might have had. I
would however claim that our posthuman inheritors will be the direct
continuation of the human *will* to understand, which is much different from
the relation between us and our ape ancestors. It was the blind evolution
that transformed the non-self enhancing ape into the directionally
developing human, but from that point on it our passion, not mere chance
alone, that will co-direct the course of our change.
Consequently, humans could take credit for understanding, even
if it occurs in entities which can out-think us like we out-think a lemur.
Also, with luck, some of those powers will be direct ontinuations of actual
humans living today. Those could really claim to be humans who can figure
out anything, given enough time.
Rafal"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A dog is equivalent to a two or three year old human child. This appears to
be a big barrier. Any dog or cat or whale injected with Drexlerian nanotech
supercomputers/cell repair-alteration machines would have to have an alien
architecture superimposed upon it. It is arguable that human archictecture
contains some more universal elements. In any event, either human or
constructed architecture would have to be superimposed, although some degree
of native architecture might be artistically weaned out into fuller form.
The abilitiy to change the environment is present in many species at a low
level. Whatever happened with humans - out of the various theories, all
probably partially correct - I tend to hold with the language theory and its
combination with social behaviour. Tool making started first, then fire and
huts (1.5 million years ago). However I have just realized that our current
major ice age (2 million years into it - 58 million to go if it weren't for
the Singularity - ice age due to current lack of equatorial oceans)
coincides with much of human development. [The ice age I am referring to is
the major not the minor lacial/inter-glacials.]
I doubt human beings collectively and individually could be "out-thought"
like a human out-thinks a lemur. I don't hold with this definition of
"thought" at all the more I think about it!
I don't hold with the notion of uploading as some sacred cow. Better brains,
yes, computronium or otherwise. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's fine
in itself. It's probably more likely to be a mix of "people" that are bush
robots with computronium brains in part at least and a broadcast
computronium substrate with continous neurlogical linkage to it enabling
entry into VR levels. But whether you're experiencing virtuality or
overtuality, and whether your in a physically separated brain or in a brain
adjacent to another brain in a computronium substrate you are in the same
situation (whether your neurons are electronic or biological or whatever) -
you interacted with other beings through senses and environments and
language, whether say actual lightning or electrons expressing software
coding of actual lightning. You can make your internal thoughts sharp enough
to be very cool and realistic but if you start interacting with others then
the same mechanisms that drive our existence as non-uploads come into
effect. This is especially relevant when you consider that an atomic-level
duplicate of yourself produced by software coding from memory storage is not
you just a duplicate. You are still dead because a meteor hit your uploading
computronium node. Where uploading makes sense is having a backup analogue
of your brain in constant broadcast linkage with your main brain, i.e. you
have three brains in continuous linkage. One might be in your bush
robot/nano/bio body and the other two are computronium fragments nearby. The
three brains have similar patterns and mimic each other via the broadcast
linkage (which acts as a non-visible extension between neurons). There are
vatiations of this idea you could think of.
And I still believe that there are different types of knowledge and
different limits to knowledge. Even if you can "know" the ocean quanta by
quanta for one moment it is not the same as knowing it as a fractal or
knowing it as algorithyms or knowing it as a cool place to enjoy swimming.
And the limits to it may not be how many bits you can fit on a computational
atom but whether there is a nude bather and they don't want your eyes to get
to close to the water around them, if you see what I mean.
Towards Ascension
Avatar Polymorph
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