From: Samantha Atkins (samantha@objectent.com)
Date: Wed Jun 12 2002 - 23:45:17 MDT
spike66 wrote:
>
>> Suicide is rampant among gay teens.
>>
> Why do you suppose that is? I have an idea that explains high
> suicide rates in gay teens that is not directly connected with abuse
> by peers.
>
I was a bit worse than gay, I was downright "queer". But I
didn't really get suicidal until I broke a heart or two myself
in ways that I wish hadn't had to be (much harder than the
normal young disappoints - much) and realized just how queer a
fish I really was.
But I suspect the feeling of being different, of being hated and
rejected for what one is, and of doubting one can overcome such
odds is common enough among us minority folks and adds that
extra pressure that raises the statistics.
Your thought experiment is interesting and a part of it but
small beside the overall depth of difference and prejudice.
>> We all know the gap between the haves and have nots has been widening
>> in the last couple of decades.
>>
> You make that sound like a bad thing.
>
> That gap makes things happen, Olga. If everyone has money,
> then it doesn't *do* much. Example, Silicon Valley. Lot
> of money, widely dispersed. What do we do with it? Bid up
> the price of each other's houses to absurd levels.
>
It is not required in order to "make things happen" as we
advance. As a matter of fact, either less of a gap or at least
everyone with as many reasources as you or I currently command
would increase the speed and scope of "things happening"
tremendously. In relative great scarcity, concentrations of
what wealth there is are obviously needed to get anything done
at all. But in much less scarcity? I don't see that that is so.
> When wealth is widely distributed it is just money.
> But when it is concentrated, it becomes CAPITAL!
> Things HAPPEN! People with vision get lots of it and
People can always pool resources of all types, including money,
to accomplish purposes they cannot do alone.
> create jobs and wealth! Everyone wins, even the have-nots.
What most of the world things of as "jobs", although sorely
missed by many now who are accustomed to them, are not exactly
an unmitigated blessing. I look forward to a time of such
abundance that each of us can work on precisely what each finds
most interesting and important. The notion one must have a
conventional job to live and have self-respect and hardly any
means at all is outmoded and is pernicious in many ways.
> Of course, the haves win bigger, but the everyone wins.
> Even the poor have hamburger and TV.
>
What of the millions in the US who do not have adequate food and
health care? What of the homeless? What of the over a billion
who are malnourished in this world today? Everyone is not
winning today. What of the hundreds of millions who are almost
certainly (with current policies) going to die of famine-related
disease in the next year? The level of poverty has actually
increased in many nations. So let's not put on the rose-colored
glasses and get to caught in admiring this "best of all possible
worlds".
Here in the US and in much (but not all) of the developed world,
we are in a special case scenario and things look a good deal
different than they do elsewhere. And even here there is vastly
more misery and poverty than their should be.
> Calling it a gap makes it sound like there is no one
> in it. You and I are in that wealth gap. We are neither
> haves or have nots. Most everyone we know are
> neither rich nor poor. The wealth gap is a very
> smooth continuum.
>
I have seen parts of it that are not "smooth" at all. They are
deadly irregular and a pestilence upon humanity. And I've seen
the worse of it only from a distance.
>> > Trailer trash often grows up to make some
>> of the best capitalists.
>>
>>
>>
>> It's almost as if you're saying - the disadvantaged are often the
>> advantaged.
>>
> The disadvantaged must *make* themselves the advantaged.
> There are many opportunities in this world to pull oneself up
> by ones bootstraps. My parents demonstrated to me how this
> is done. You work your ass off, you end up ahead.
>
These opportunities are certainly not everywhere available,
even, in some places in this world, to the most exceptional ones
imaginable. Even in the US it is not terribly easy to get off
the bottom, homeless, once one is there. It was not easy for me
around age 20 and I have more advantages than most. So I don't
comfortably believe that this is always possible or sufficient
enough to maximize our human resources as we wisely should.
Working our ass off to get ahead is sometimes a great racket
that siphons off most of one's life energy, into the pockets of
others. If you are very lucky you manage to save and/or invest
enough to finally, if you any more energy left, do that which
you most belief in doing. The system however, is rigged against
you quite strongly. As we used to say, "Beating the System *is*
the System!"
> Then of course, their advantaged children may eventually revert
> back to the disadvantaged, but thats their own fault.
>
Why are you drawing this really simplistic picture? I can
assure you things are a great deal more complex and take you
around to see some of that complexity if you wish.
> Be what you are. And improve yourself every chance you
> get. Perpetual progress, self transformation, practical
> optimism: these are more than just words, they are a way
> of life. We can all win. Lets do it. spike
>
We can all win but not by being only for ourselves and endlessly
being engaged in beating out others and in blaming self and
others (it's their own fault) for any lack or failure
experienced. We can design a system where we all win with much
less waste and misery. It is high time we got on with it
instead of telling ourselves pleasant half-truth,
half-outrageous sham bromides.
- samantha
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