From: R. Coyote (coyyote@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue May 28 2002 - 21:30:07 MDT
Seems to me a mushroom hallucinogen experience or a sound-light 'brain
machine' would immediately 'fix' the lack of imagery.
Its unimaginable to me that someone couldn't close their eyes and 'see' an
apple after just staring at one, then again I usually have vividly colored
dreams with full music tracts, and often experience lucid dreaming and
classic 'OBE's whatever they actualy are.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Hales" <colin@versalog.com.au>
To: <extropians@extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 7:29 PM
Subject: RE: Lack of Imagery - call for experiences....
>
> Dear Extropy folks....
>
> There is a thread on the psych D discussion forum at the moment in
relation
> to those of us without the capacity for mental imagery. I have attached
the
> latest example.
>
> I was wondering if any of you folks out there with the same (or a
variation
> of) would like to post your experience to the list (or to me to forward to
> it). The list is a direct connection to researchers who may find it
useful.
> It is a highly moderated list. Flaky descriptions will go to the dumpster!
> It is because you guys are a literate tribe - seem capable of stringing
> nice verbage together - that I thought I'd give extropy a shot.
>
> The issue is one of great relevance to those of us interested in nailing
> down consciousness in humans (an obvious AI/singularity issue).
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> regards,
>
> Colin Hales
>
>
============================================================================
> ==============
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PSYCHE Discussion Forum (Theoretical emphasis)
> [mailto:PSYCHE-D@LISTSERV.UH.EDU]
> On Behalf Of LarryVictor137@CS.COM
> Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2002 9:16 AM
> To: PSYCHE-D@LISTSERV.UH.EDU
> Subject: LACKING IMAGERY
>
>
> Yes, there is (a Santa) IMAGERY. We all MUST have imagery, claims Rick.
> Might it be so, but unfortunately, it isn't. It is interesting how
people
> claim to know what others are experiencing, or not experiencing. What
Rick
> reports is the discovery of a person that they explicitly have imagery,
and
> then being able to intentionally develop imagery skills. Why it takes
> someone to explicitily be aware of imagery is as puzzling as for someone
> (like myself) to live 22 years speaking as if I had imagery, but actually
> lacked imagery. I even worked for summers as a draftsman without the
> ability to move objects around in my mind. Many people can begin to
> appreciate a lack of visual imagery when they realize that they may lack
> imagery in other sensory modalities. Rick, I would fail your experiment,
> and have many such examples that I used with subjects/students to
determine
> their lack/style of imagery. Unless I note verbally to myself a feature
of
> a percept, I cannot recall that feature. This is REAL, and IMPORTANT.
>
> Eli Ness, you are not alone. In a very old study (by a woman, Roe, from
> New Zealand), about 3% of the population lack visual imagery. I am one
of
> them. People lack "sensory-like" imagery in all sensory domains: visual,
> auditory
> (music and/or speech), tactile, taste and odor, proprioceptive and
> kinaestic. Roe gave percents, but the study must be repeated. I appear
> unique (as to literature searches) in lacking "sensory-like" imagery in
ALL
> sensory domains. Most people have such imagery in some modalities, but
the
> intensity and degree of control varies greatly. Indeed, many people
report
> imagery that is so weak and uncontrolled that it is "useless". Only a
> small percent report strong imagery.
>
> The story about your father is very interesting. My father was a
draftsman
> who claimed to have imagery, but I never was convinced he had visual
> imagery. I have never heard of a person gaining visual imagery, as your
> father reported. Once, a student was referred to me who had reported to
her
> instructor that she woke fully lacking visual imagery (which had been
> strong all her life) and was devastated; unfortunately she never saw me.
> Most person's imagery styles seem to remain constant throughout life. I
> have no sensory-like rememberances of my past. I don't know what my
> friends and family members look like - but I can recognize persons after
> some time knowing them.
>
> I also dream visually, in color. I have never noticed sound in my
dreams.
> On waking I can't replay the visuals of the dream, but the emotional
force
> may linger for minutes. Some of my dreams are semi-lucid, I often know
it
> is a dream but I cannot influence the dream. I can meta-comment
> conceptually (not verbally) on my dream and this meta-commentary can
> continue after my dream, to the extent that I can sometimes describe them
> in considerable detail. But, the descriptions don't come from a visual
> replay, nor to they excite visual remembering.
>
> I also sense pre-imagery in my preconscious. Often I will sense it as a
> field of variations of what might be presented to consciousness, but
there
> is no selection going on so nothing comes up. A few times a month before
> going to sleep my inner visual field will become bright with swirls of
> color for a few seconds. This is different from visuals made by pressing
> the eyeballs. Attempts to maintain the experience accelerates its
> disappearance. A few times a year I will have a very brief, very weak
> image - like black on black. Sometimes a face, or a body, or a landscape.
> Less than a second and without the focus and sharpness of "real" images.
> They are always too brief for "identification". But, I know they were
> there, and was pleased. In total dark my visual is usually deep black -
> but often with some weak texturing.
>
> I discovered my lack of visual imagery while in graduate school in
physics
> at the University of Chicago in 1957 when I was 22. It happened when I
had
> a brief, intense visual image. I told my friends and they didn't think it
> special. Over my life I have had a few brief representational visual
> images, and I thus know what they are and what I ordinarily lack. The
only
> auditory image I have is an occasion of thinking I hear my name spoken.
I
> have NEVER imaged even a simple melody in my head (I can hum them). Nor
> can I image my body in positions or movements other than what it is doing.
> I even have weak body perception, I don't know where my feet are pointing
> without looking at them, which is a handicap if one attempts to ski. I
> can't imagine the taste of garlic nor the smell of skunk. In fact,
visual
> imagery is the only kind of sensory-like imagery that I have experienced
in
> a very limited way. I frustrate greatly those experiential leaders who
> depend on forms of imagery
> (usually visual, auditory or movement). Often I discover others at such
> sessions who also fake it.
>
> When I discovered I lacked imagery, I began to study imagery - just as it
> was emerging from behaviorist suppression. I interviewed many artists who
> employed imagery in their work: painters, composers, dancers. I know very
> well what people report who have powerful imagery and I know that I don't
> have such experiences, even slightly. Many personal friends are at the
> other end, having very powerful and controllable imagery. Researchers in
> imagery were not favorable to persons who reported a lack of imagery.
This
> led me to write and present a paper: "Categories of Mental Experience:
> Conceptual -Emotive Imagery", presented at The Second American
> Conference on the Fantasy and Imaging Process in Chicago, November 3-5,
> 1978. My paper was not well received, with many researchers insisting
that
> I experienced imagery but didn't recognize it. For a decade I subscribed
> to the Journal of Mental Imagery, which never seemed to get itself out of
> using behavioral research paradigms to study imagery. A passage would be
> read and the subject asked, "what happened", and told that a horse jumped
a
> fence. Few asked, what did YOU experience: were you on the horse, did
you
> feel the gravity and wind, were you observing from high above? Maybe
they
> are doing this today, but they weren't in the 1980s.
>
> Teaching introductory psychology for 23 years I found a few percent of
> students each year who lacked visual imagery. They were very pleased to
> learn of their problem and how to begin to compensate for it. One woman
was
> studying sheet metal construction and was relieved to learn why she had
> difficulty imagining the sheets being folded into 3D forms. I also began
> an informal study of individual differences among those who reported
mental
> imagery, and the diversity is great. I discovered that degrees of visual
> imagery was very important in learning to read. Visual imagery can be an
> asset in reading descriptive literature, but usually visual imagery is a
> severe handicap when reading conceptual literature. Reading teachers and
> researchers were not interested at all about this issue as it didn't fit
> with their preconceptions about the nature of reading.
>
> I personally don't expect lack of imagery to be directly related to
> synaesthia (which I have also studied extensively). I won't go into the
> details of my imagery styles here, but I am searching my archives for
what
> I did write and am open to dialog with others about lacks of and
> differences with imagery.
>
> I speculate that the biological source of my lack of imagery relates to a
> need for the consciousness "screen" to be continually refreshed. When
> perceiving from my senses, energy from the continuing sensory stimulation
> keeps the "screen" refreshed. If the stimulus for the "screen" is
internal
> and requiring feedback to maintain a pattern, the image on the screen
could
> be too brief to be noted. This could be due to an internal erasure of
weak
> neuronal resonances (mini shock treatments - possibly the origins of some
> EEG patterns), that for me is too powerful to permit images other than
> those in continuous reinforcement to exist long enough to be noticed. It
> would be interesting re Rick's suggested experiment to assess what my
> responses to colors or other features of percepts would be, even if not
> from conscious experience. Yet, this would only show that I had recorded
> the feature, NOT that I had CONSCIOUS IMAGERY.
>
> This may be related to those neurologist subjects who have very narrow
> temporal consciousness - who lose contact in about a second if not
> reinforced. I speculate that my condition has a strong genetic basis. I
> had vivid, rapidly changing, highly detailed and colored visual imagery
> EYES CLOSE using LSD. I could not keep my eyes shut for more than a
second
> or two, too intense. No eyes open imagery with LSD, although some form
> distortion. Holotropic Breathwork did not generate imagery.
>
> I have compensated for my lack of sensory imagery, which enables me to
> experience DIRECTLY what I call explicit "conceptual-emotive imagery" -
> which serves as a background experience for those who are experiencing
> sensory-type imagery, either from perception or from memory or
imagination.
> Although I would like to be able to switch on imagery, lacking it most of
> my life would mean I would have little control over it. Many people
exhibit
> strange behaviors because of intense unbidden mental imagery which can be
> very difficult to live with. I do not want unbidden imagery.
>
> As a brief background. I have two PhDs, in Physics (1965) from Yale and
in
> Educational Psychology (1970) from Minnesota; but my learning has become
> transdisciplinary. I have attended all the Consciousness conferences in
> Tucson and was a participant in PSYCH-D listserv for a few years. I am
not
> currently involved in imagery research.
>
> Larry Victor larryvictor137@cs.com
>
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> =================
>
>
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