From: Samantha Atkins (samantha@objectent.com)
Date: Tue May 21 2002 - 00:34:35 MDT
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote:
> Samantha Atkins wrote:
>
>>>From: "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" <sentience@pobox.com>
>>>
>>>>I think you don't *need* to teach kids to be self-serving. However, you
>>>>can't teach kids to be altruistic by making them take out the garbage. The
>>>>human mind just does not work that way, at least not in my experience. If
>>>>you want to create altruism, give the kids opportunities for self-willed
>>>>altruism, reward it when you see it, and don't be disappointed if you
>>>>don't.
>>>>
>>Helping around the house has nothing at all to do with altruism.
>>It does have a lot to do with a sense of fairness and having a
>>stake (input and responsibilities) in one's environment.
>>
>
> If you are going to be "expecting" things of children (a very dangerous
> attitude to take; "hoping" or "cultivating" is far safer), then you need to
> have some idea of how the children see it. I understand that you might wish
> children to help out of a sense of duty, responsibility, fairness, and
> having some stake in one's environment. I am questioning whether it is
> realistic to expect a child to view the world in this way. I don't recall
> these emotions kicking in with respect to parentally enforced chores,
> certainly not before the age of 13. The emotions you describe are felt only
> when interacting with others as equals and making one's own choices.
>
You do, of course, have a perfectly valid point about how
children often take these things. But I remember being happy in
some of my chores by age 9 or 10. The ones I was unhappy with
were ones to keep me busy so I wouldn't be too "much trouble" or
wouldn't have "my nose in a book" all the time.
But isn't the child's attitude to these things beside the point
of whether it is developmentally good to have some duties and
responsibility even when still a child? Children dislike a
great deal of things that may be in their best interests. So do
most adults.
> Actually, human nature exhibits the disgusting property that the emotions of
> responsibility are felt internally when interacting with others as equals,
> but are *demanded* of others when interacting with them as their equals *or
> superiors*. Back in the bad old days, slaveowners often saw slaves as
> "shirking duty". The slaves were not likely to see it that way.
>
I don't think it makes a lot of sense to compare a child given
an hour or less of chores to a slave working from dawn to dusk
minimum day in an day out. I feel and have felt responsibility
to "superiors", "equals" and "inferiors" if I bother to think of
people in such a fashion. How something is seen by one of the
parties involved is not necessarily equivalent to how it more
realistically is, especially when one of the parties does not
yet possess a particularly mature viewpoint. Do some parents
oppress their children with too many tasks and duties often even
delivered as punishment? Yes, of course. Does this mean that
all chores assigned to children are wrong unless the child
spontaneously volunteered? No. I don't think so.
- samantha
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