From: Eliezer S. Yudkowsky (sentience@pobox.com)
Date: Sun May 19 2002 - 09:38:56 MDT
Samantha Atkins wrote:
>
> It might also be fairly pointed out that while you are closer to
> your own childhood in years than most of us are here, you don't
> know anything real about parenting - about raising responsible
> people from scratch.
Heh heh. No, you and Dossy know about raising responsible people from
assembly kits.
> I think you are missing the point. Kids, in order to grow into
> reasonable citizens, need to learn that it is to be expected
> that they help out where they can. There is nothing nefarious
> or arbitrary in this. It is basic housebreaking. I just wish
> more people I know now as supposed adults actually caught on to
> the idea when young. You would think a lot of people grew up
> with maids and other hired help. They certainly pretend things
> just get done that they would rather not deal with.
>
> Not being willing to help when you can is "giving no respect".
I really don't think this is best taught through chores. As I recall my
childhood, the times I really volunteered for something was when a parental
unit was sick, or later merely tired. *That* is seeing responsibility. The
way you learn responsibility and duty is by seeing people in need and seeing
that you can make an improvement in the universe, not by having chores
assigned to you. Chores are just going to be chores, onerous and unwished.
They are absolutely the wrong vehicle to teach a child anything about
responsibility and duty.
> Control? What is this big control trip doing in this context?
> Work needs to be done to keep the local environment going and
> you could help do some of it. Why exactly should you not or why
> should you be surprised if you are expected to? Not doing
> these things or considering the question is truly irresponsible.
Children *are* irresponsible and you cannot overcome this by preaching to
them about the moral background of onerous chores. All you can do is teach
them to hate the morality behind it. Keep morality out of the issue of
chores.
> There isn't anything in the least immoral about expecting your
> kids to help out a bit when they are able.
Sure there is, the "expecting" part. That implies that you're seeing the
kids against the background of a social model that is different from the
social model which *they* see. And they cannot be trained to see it your
way by any amount of threats or explanation. All you can do is teach them
to resent it. So keep moral issues out of the way and just tell them they
have to take the garbage out. Don't expect them to learn anything from it.
As best as I can recall, the brainware is just not wired that way. People
learn responsibility to the collective from being placed in situations where
they personally desire the collective benefit and personally choose to act
to achieve it. "Take out the garbage or no dessert for you" is never going
to fit this.
> A good case for
> somewhat immoral parenting could be made if you let your kids
> just do whatever they like with no responsibilities for the
> collective environment until they scoot off to college or
> otherwise leave the nest.
Again: Chores are the wrong battleground on which to teach morality.
-- -- -- -- --
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
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