From: Hermit (hidden@extropy.org)
Date: Sat Apr 20 2002 - 22:11:27 MDT
A full reply may be viewed (in full mark-up format) at http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=25392
The formatting under discussion may be viewed at FAQ: Hermitish mail mark-up and citation V2.1 (http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=31;action=display;threadid=11526)
As this reply appears to be relevant to Extropians as well, and is indirectly a response to a critical article posted on the ExI BBS (of which I am a member), it appears appropriate to post excerpts here too.
[hr]
[David Lucifer 1]
[Ashton 2]
[Hermit 3]
[hr]
[David Lucifer] Message sent to Extropians mailing list: http://www.extropy.org/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=51564
[Ashton 2] Humm, I\'d swap bizarrely wrong design with the more delightful \'wrong-headed\'.
[Hermit 3] I\'ll deal with this later. I would suggest that \"bizarrely wrong design\" might apply to people advocating embedding line wrapping into text, and thus confusing data and presentation. If so, it indubitably applies to \">\" indentation of mail which requires the embedding of hard line feeds and makes the material almost unusable after more than a few people have commented on it, even on computers supporting 80 column text. I\'m not even sure that \"wrong-headed\" applies at all, as the mark-up is a way which permits users to format their text in such a way as to make it more attractive to people viewing it through the BBS, comprehensible to those receiving it in mail and fully useable in a WAP environment. The alternative appears to be no formatting capability at all, the easy confusion of attribution in all but the simplest cases, a confused tangle of wrapped lines and the non-portability of the material. Perhaps the reason for considering this approach \"wrong headed\" is simply that none of th
is might be visible to somebody lacking appropriate experience or imagination. Perhaps you would like to expand on why you perceive this effort as \'wrong-headed\'?
[Ashton 2] \'a simplified mail-markup\'? It\'s certainly not simpler for the writers! Unless, of course, someone\'s scripted their mail agent blue in the face ...
[Hermit 3] Actually, I have to disagree. It takes me much less time (as a fairly prolific writer), to enter \"Hermitish mark-up\" manually, rather than trying to follow \">\" indentation. Certainly I (and many others) find it much easier to follow. The important point being that the use of any form of mark-up is purely optional, but the fact that it exists and is \"mail-safe\" as well as displaying effectively on the BBS allows those who wish to take the trouble to make their messages a lot more attractive, and allows somebody with slight experience to follow items formatted in this fashion in email or on the BBS. As the FAQ (http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=31;action=display;threadid=11526) puts it, \"The use of this system is recommended but not mandated for postings on the CoV. Using it will make it more likely that others will read your submissions and will help to prevent the CoV from becoming a \"write only zone.\" The use of HTML in posting to the CoV is depreciated and should be avoided u
nder any circumstances.\"
[Ashton 2] However, I guess that it keeps the cult factor high though sheer ugliness.
[Hermit 3] This loaded sentence contains a number of assertions which I would challenge. The use of \"sheer ugliness\" is a personal opinion, which you are certainly entitled to, although not, I think, generally shared. Certainly, the assertion of \"cult factor\" does not apply at all, unless the CoV is a cult. So let\'s see.
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First allow me introduce you to the Church of Virus.
Virus is (http://virus.lucifer.com/about.html) ...
[*]a forum for rational discourse
[*] a memetically engineered atheistic religion
[*] a synthesis of religion and evolution
[*] the best possible conceptual framework for living and thinking
[*] a neo-cybernetic philosophy for the 21st century
[*] Darwin\'s dangerous idea out of control
[*] an extended phenotype of the Virion Council
We have a clearly defined Purpose or Goal (http://virus.lucifer.com/about.html)
Virus was originally created to compete with the traditional (irrational) religions in the human ideosphere with the idea that it would introduce and propagate memes, which would ensure the survival and evolution of our species. The main advantage conferred upon adherents is Virus provides a conceptual framework for leading a truly meaningful life and attaining immortality without resorting to mystical delusions. And an equally clearly defined set of \"virtues,\" The 3 Virian Virtues: Reason, Empathy, Vision (http://virus.lucifer.com/virtues.html) and \"sins,\" The 3 Senseless Sins: Dogmatism, Apathy, Hypocrisy (http://virus.lucifer.com/sins.html) The Church of Virus is a collaborative project; and those who subscribe to our ideas are invited to consider joining us on the Virus BBS. From the above we can conclude that: A Virian is someone who uses rational cognition to recognize, create, host, and propagate successful and beneficial memes. (http://)
Before examining the question of whether we are a cult, a better understanding of one additional word might be useful. The word is \"Belief.\" 3 Belief: Belief can only occur where acceptance is not compelled, for if acceptance is compelled, then belief is not required to accept that thing. Belief is thus the acceptance of some thing as being provisionally true where:
[*] contradictory evidence exists which throws doubt upon or compels the rejection of the thing being accepted as truth.
[*] insufficient evidence exists to compel or suggest acceptance of the thing as truth.
As such belief is generally either dogmatic or hypocritical or both, and as such is rejected by the CoV as being senseless.
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Now, the question arises, is the CoV a Cult?
Borrowing the definition of a cult from the Skeptics Society (From Skeptic vol. 2, no. 2, 1993, pp. 74-81 available on-line at http://www.skeptic.com/ (Unfortunately not a site designed to encourage citation)), we find that they describe a cult as follows. A cult may be characterized by:
[*]Veneration of the Leader: Excessive glorification to the point of virtual sainthood or divinity.
[*]Inerrancy of the Leader: Belief that he or she cannot be wrong.
[*]Omniscience of the Leader: Acceptance of beliefs and pronouncements on virtually all subjects, from the philosophical to the trivial.
[*]Persuasive Techniques: Methods used to recruit new followers and reinforce current beliefs.
[*]Hidden Agendas: Potential recruits and the public are not given a full disclosure of the true nature of the group\'s beliefs and plans.
[*]Deceit: Recruits and followers are not told everything about the leader and the group\'s inner circle, particularly flaws or potentially embarrassing events or circumstances.
[*]Financial and/or Sexual Exploitation: Recruits and followers are persuaded to invest in the group, and the leader may develop sexual relations with one or more of the followers.
[*]Absolute Truth: Belief that the leader and/or group has a method of discovering final knowledge on any number of subjects.
[*]Absolute Morality: Belief that the leader and/or the group have developed a system of right and wrong thought and action applicable to members and nonmembers alike. Those who strictly follow the moral code may become and remain members, those who do not are dismissed or punished.
Now, knowing what a cult is, let us compare this to the Church of Virus. Before doing so, it is worth reminding ourselves that our \"articles of affiliation\" are simply that anyone working with us towards our goals, eschewing the \"senseless sins\" and aspiring to exemplify the \"virian virtues,\" is welcome to be a member of the Church of Virus. So, with a shared basis of understanding, let us examine the CoV against the hallmarks of a cult.
<Response snipped here to reduce volume. Essentially each of these cultish attributes is contrasted to the principles and practices of the CoV and rejected.>
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[Hermit 3] So are we a cult? Not by a \"skeptical standard.\" Would you like to offer us an alternative definition which supports your blundering assertion, or was it simply an attempted insult - in which case it has already received more attention than it deserved.
[Hermit 3] In conclusion, let me suggest that what I don\'t get is why people join an existing group, where the invitation to join is \"Virus is a collaborative project; if you subscribe to the ideas consider joining us on the Virus BBS\", only to criticize what has achieved, without having introduced themselves, let alone made a contribution, and without offering a viable alternative. So, Ashton, if you consider what we are using to be \"wrong headed\", please take the time to propose your \"right headed\" alternative which permits the same capabilities of portable ASCII email and useable BBS mark-up (in the same mail). After all, the Church of Virus is a \"collaborative\" community and we wish to provide the best possible support for our members whether the attend via the web (http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs) or via the maillist (subscribe virus at [email]majordomo@lucifer.com]) and irrespective of whether they use a PC, a hand held or a voice synthesizer (as a number of our members do).
Good suggestions and valid criticism are always welcome. Unwarranted sneering and invalid objections are not.
Regards
Hermit
---- This message was posted by Hermit to the Extropians 2002 board on ExI BBS. <http://www.extropy.org/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=51564>
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