From: Greg Burch (gregburch@gregburch.net)
Date: Wed Sep 12 2001 - 18:10:34 MDT
A quick response . . .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian `Guru Zeb` Harper" <guruzeb@blueyonder.co.uk>
> >My father's
> >generation went through the years of World War II with their basic civil
> >liberties intact, although temporarily and modestly curtailed during the
> >actual conflict.
>
> Hmmmmmm i know a few US citizens of Japanese origin who would seriously
> question this assumption.
This was a deplorable thing -- an over-reaction if ever there was one, I
agree. The US gvt has issued a formal apoplogy and paid financial
reparation, neither of which "make it alright"
> >Contrary to the claims of
> >Arab-Americans and others today, and in the days that follow, that the
> >9/11/01 attacks don't represent "true Islam", in fact they do.
>
> hmmmm really think you should have had a "IMHO" attached to this, since as
> far as i am aware the Koran does not really endorse in it's many of the
> acts committed
> in it's name.
I began re-reading the Koran carefully today. I post below (at the end of
this post) excerpts from as far as I've gotten so far that mark the book as
a recipe for hatred and fanaticism.
> >On the other hand, the modern dogma of cultural relativism makes any kind
of
> >public judgment of one culture by another impossible. Any condemnation
of
> >Islam for the fertilizer of fanaticism that it is would be interpreted by
> >the shapers of our own culture as chauvinism.
>
> There are various historic reason for this, not least the fact that so
> called "inferior cultures"
> have in the past been hugely exploited and oppressed. The aftermath
leaving
> the world with many of
> the enormous and varied problems seen in Africa, South America, and many
> other parts of the
> developing world.
Not all of the cultural problems in these areas are due to be opressed by
Europeans and Americans. Africans sold slaves to Arabs before they sold
them to Europeans. China was a deeply misogynistic culture before its
modern contact with the West. And don't get me started on the bloody
savagery of Pre-conquest Mesoamerican culture.
> [snip fascinating autobigraphical material which I much appreciated.
> Now am pretty sure that the process of socialization experienced by many
> Muslim kids from
> poor and deeply religious backgrounds is similar yet more extreme, to that
> experienced by many
> of my friends. Young Muslim kids in some communities are raised to expect
> American abuse, as
> such the slightest mistake of presentation or policy causes a far more
> extreme reaction than
> reasonable. Christianity was for want of a better term "tamed" we need a
> non-confrontational strategy
> to do the same thing with Islam.
>
> Perhaps this is the area that could be addressed and where serious useful
> changes could be made.
> This kind of approach would perhaps have a long time scale since it's main
> targets would essentially
> be the next generation of bombers. But maybe not after all, how many times
> could a Muslim father
> leave his home to cause mayhem with the disapproving looks of his children
> to comfort him.
> What ways can be found to essentially indoctrinate Muslim kids " most
> likely at risk" in broad minded,
> liberal tolerance. ( maybe even Extropian values )
> Of course am not advocating overt indoctrination, this would be seen as
> threatening, am advocating
> something much more subtle than that. :)
>
> We probably all remember Gregs post about the young Indian boys future
> reading habits
> and the broad response it brought. It seemed almost everyone wanted to
help
> make the kids
> literary experiences rich and positive. Maybe we can put our heads
together
> and come up
> with suggestions that could have a real impact. After all what could be a
> greater Extropian
> project than the creation of an Extropian generation.
I am in broad agreement with you, but feel that the project is doomed before
it begins. More about which as soon as I can find more time. In the
meanwhile, here are quotes from about the first 20% of the Q'ran that I
found particularly chavinistic and inciteful to bigotry and violence:
<><><>
"2.190": And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and
do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the
limits.
"2.191": And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from
whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do
not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it,
but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the
unbelievers.
"2.192": But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
"2.193": And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion
should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no
hostility except against the oppressors.
"2.217": They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it.
Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way
and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its
people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver
than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn
you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from
his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever -- these it is whose works
shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the
inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide.
"3.12": Say to those who disbelieve: You shall be vanquished, and driven
together to hell; and evil is the resting-place.
"3.28": Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather
than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the
guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them,
guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from)
Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
"3.118": O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among
others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon
you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared
from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still;
indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will
understand.
"3.119": Lo! you are they who will love them while they do not love you,
and you believe in the Book (in) the whole of it; and when they meet you
they say: We believe, and when they are alone, they bite the ends of their
fingers in rage against you. Say: Die in your rage; surely Allah knows what
is in the breasts.
"3.120": If good befalls you, it grieves them, and if an evil afflicts
you, they rejoice at it; and if you are patient and guard yourselves, their
scheme will not injure you in any way; surely Allah comprehends what they
do.
"3.145": And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah the
term is fixed; and whoever desires the reward of this world, I shall give
him of it, and whoever desires the reward of the hereafter I shall give him
of it, and I will reward the grateful.
"3.146": And how many a prophet has fought with whom were many worshipers
of the Lord; so they did not become weak-hearted on account of what befell
them in Allah's way, nor did they weaken, nor did they abase themselves; and
Allah loves the patient.
"3.157": And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly
forgiveness from Allah and mercy is better than what they amass.
"3.158": And if indeed you die or you are slain, certainly to Allah shall
you be gathered together.
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