From: Jerry Mitchell (jmitch12@tampabay.rr.com)
Date: Wed Aug 29 2001 - 17:20:50 MDT
> From: "Jerry Mitchell" <jmitch12@tampabay.rr.com>
> >Maybe then you can clarify the exact point in time and space that
> >"Stock options" and the days that are above the minimum were
> >fought for and achieved? While you at it, find out where they were
> >forced to pay for my relocation to a new city for this job.
>
> >What about my company bonus? When did the evil business owners
> >collapse to the demands for this?
>
> Sure, glad to help....
>
> The shift in the time-space continuum you refereed to occurred in
> Chicago on May 4th 1886.
>
> Without this occurring we probably wouldn't even have minimum wage
> yet.
>
I figured you would dodge this. I didn't ask about when minimum wage
started, I'm asking why everyone isn't getting paid minimum wage?!
>
>
> >Like I said, this "modern labor shortage" could have been reached
> >MUCH earlier if the market for labor wasn't distorted by labor
> >unions trying to artificially raise their pay rates above market
> >value.
>
> So you said. now try applying modern economic theory and give us a
> proof.
>
>
What proof? If a company pays you 50K instead of 25K, they cant hire that
2nd person. Cant imagine anyone not getting that.
> >Only by controlling the supply of labor by force. What if a
> >factory was forced to pay people 3 dollars and hour, and they were
> >forced to do so by the union. Then here I come in. I need a job so
> >I tell the company Ill do the work for 2.50 and hour. The supply
> >just lowered the value of the labor, but wait, they cant hire me
> >at that rate, the union wont let them. Too bad too, the company
> >had enough money budgeted in to accept me at that rate, but cant
> >afford me at $3. Guess Ill just have to go tell the kids no food
> >this month. If you drought this happens, look at the people
> working >in the automotive companies making 50K a year for bolting
> on >wheels. Now THATS insanity. The work isn't worth whats being
> paid.
>
> Funny how you don't blame the company for not hiring you at $3.00
> an hour when they accepted your offer at $2.50.
You missed my point again. They don't have the funds to hire you for 3, only
2.50. If this logic worked, we could just raise the minimum wage to a
million dollars an hour and well all be rich right? Just pay them all more
is the mantra here right?
>
> You claim tire installers are making 50K? how about some proof, and
> by the way if it wasn't worth it the company wouldn't pay it....
I personally have 1 uncle that works at Ford on the assembly line. He makes
45K for reasonable unskilled work due to union pressure. The companies may
be making a profit, but I wonder how much more they could have grown
otherwise. How many more jobs would have been created. How many more people
hired? Maybe they might be buying Fords in Japan if that had been the case?
>
> >So lets just get them to throw a monkey wrench into the company
> >machinery, that ought to help create wealth a lot. Maybe their
> >related to those Luddites?
>
> They're on the picket line, nowhere near the machinery...
Yeah, like I said, the teamsters were simply angels.
>
>
> >Technical shortcomings of capitalism? Like what? The fact everyone
> >wasn't millionares overnight? I hope you didnt expect capitalism
> >to magicially make everyone wealthy instantly, it takes time to
> >build trade up to the levels they are now.
>
>
> Like given that without government intervention companies can form
> monopoly/monopsonies and completely distort the prices in a market.
>
> This has happened previously.
>
> Lets try a modern day example. Suppose Microsoft was the only
> software company in the world. Do you think anyone would be getting
> stock options and bonuses or relocation allowances, or would
> programmers be working for minimum wage.
Microsoft is NOT a coercive monopoly. Only the government can create an
organization and use the power of force to keep it on top (like post office,
utilities, etc..). Microsoft is on top because they provide a product that
people WANT to buy.
>
> >Let me summerize this in 2 points.
> >1. Labor unions OR buisnesses dont controll the price of labor.
>
> Either a monopoly or a monopsony can control the price of either
> goods or labor.
>
No such thing as a private industry monopoly in the US. Doesn't exist.
There's companies that hold a lot of market share, but they can be pulled
down by market forces and they cant use FORCE to prevent it. You want to
bring down Microsoft, make a better operating system.
> >2. Distortions in the market create inefficiencies and ultimately
> >slow down wealth creation.
>
> Agreed, and either a monopsony or monopoly can create such
> distortions.
>
>
> Brian
But those poor ragged starving masses cant distort the market it seems, even
with the power of a union. Its so easy to empathize with those sweet
innocent non-violent unions when the antagonist is some burly evil
corporation that kills, maims, and steal little children's candy for the fun
of it.
Jerry
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