From: Samantha Atkins (samantha@objectent.com)
Date: Mon Feb 05 2001 - 12:32:58 MST
Brian Phillips wrote:
>
> Lately I have been thinking about a future without widespread nano. Granted
> nano is something I hope for...
Hope for sounds pretty weak. If you believe in it work toward it or
invest in it and extoll its virtues. Don't just "hope".
>but there are lots of problems (space travel,
> cryonic suspension, genetic engineering etc.) that we could solve without
> it.
It is very doubtful we can solve the first two in any very thorough way
without NT. The last is insufficient to eliminate all human disease or
even raise our IQs too far.
>As a bioscience sort of guy I tend to look to the "more-certain"
> solution, the IT and engineering types are charging after nano, if it's here
> in 30 years..cool. If not..if it turns out to be a 2001 lunar colony....i
> prefer to have made other arrangements.
> On the cryonics front..neurovitrification is the no-nano-needed tech thus
> far. Frankly I like NNN tech. It's cool. It's conceivable. It doesn't
> involve waving a nano god-wand all around.
Show me the first person successfully revived without NT and I will
agree that this is cool even without.
> genetic engineering is definitely NNN tech.
sorry... NNN?
> Next stop ..NNN borganisms.
> Take a single individual, suitable for making a pilot project. Use the
> 5-years away simple cloning tech to generate a first gen group of say five.
> Use third-worlder surrogate mothers to carry the fetal clones. You can
> employ any and all en vitro enhancement techniques (the epigentic, "enriched
> environment" toys). The best money can buy naturally.
> Once your first gen is born it's best to be VERY careful about how much of
> what you are doing is public knowledge. Assuming one was in a sufficently
> lawless locality other "steps" to ensure the collective come to mind.
> A conlang (similar in principle to loglan/Lojban, though aimed towards a
> very different outcome) would be absolutely needed as the first native
> language of the brood.
Uh. You haven't said at all what you are attempting to do. So far you
have some genetically identical copies growing up with the best
treatments money can buy plus a lot of twisting to try to persuade them
they are one organism in order to insure ???. I don't get it.
> You could take advantage of the Sapir-Worf hypothesis (essentially
> language shapes cognition), and structure the brood's language in such a way
> that the identity barriers were intrinsically blurred. Multiple prounouns
What for? Exactly what do you think that will accomplish? What are you
cooking in your laboratory that treats humans as simply experimental
subjects?
> and careful vocabulary selection would be indicated. Inclusion of modalities
> of expression such as gesture and sign "phonenemes" would reinforce the
> "difference" between the Brood and others. why force kids to make up a
> secret language..give it to them. :)
> You might encourage the children to think of the other Brood members as
> "extensions of themselves" from the earliest months. The ultimate goal here
> is "he looks just like me, so he is (essentially) Me". The aims would be a
He (or member 5) gets a tummy ache and I don't (this time). He steps on
my hand and I hurt. I don't think you can wipe out obvious
differences. These clones will diverge over time.
> psychological gestualt, extreme empathy, and the development of
> pseudotelepathy (something that seems psychic, even though it's just a
> skill). The final angle on this is sortof taboo in modern america..but you
Is there any limit to your suppositions?
> can encourage all sorts of mindsets with the proper pharmaceuticals (another
> NNN tech!) Nothing like tripping as a bonding experience. Encouraging the
Yes. Tripping is such a major bonding experience that most hippie
communes immediately fell into a pattern of utter unity and cooperation
and most of us ex-trippers are utterly bound to one another and
humanity. Yeah, right.
> use of journals and the like to "assist in the aquisition of memories housed
> in adjacent neural structures" would be good too. Electronic-journals and
> using the Net as a neural crutch are tools for elevating a subculture to a
> true "community of like minds". How likely is it that 5+ genetically
> identical individuals with IQs in the 140+ range who really think they are
> pieces of the same macro-organism, won't "become" what they think they are.
And what is that? A collective of minds? So what? The spark of
original thought is unlikely in that it originates in one head at a time
and if all 5 don't immediately catch it then it is a problem to the
artificial identity you have artifically attempted to enforce.
> As tech advances you can deploy all new technologies into the "witch's
> brew". wearables, interface tech. it's all SO much more effective if you
> are already on the "same wavelength" with your clan gen. Naturally, if you
> start with a decent set of genes, you can raise genius. Then they work out
> the details with the next generation. And so forth. You attain complete
> knowledge of a single individual genome and you have the knowledge you need
> for the whole family..no wasteful genetic shuffling every generation, no
> "regression towards the norm" smoothing out the precious sigmas of deviation
> from the general population's intelligence level.
How is the group becoming genetically enhanced? You are cloning the
same pattern over and over again. Do you really think this will get us
any closer to solving the problems we all care about? How many
generations of illegal playing around of this kind are needed to produce
any results that are really useful (in your view) at all? Does the
world tread water in the meantime?
> The weird thing about all this is it sounds doable...without waiting for
> nano to allow you to upload or download your mind and into a waiting clone
> body. I'd much rather meet the Singularity with a half-hundred younger
> selves (likely MUCH more intelligent capable selves) at my back. An if the
Here is a large mistake. Those clones ARE NOT YOU and are not your
"younger selves". They are their own person[s]. It is precisely the
same as hoping your children or theirs will make it or be with you. You
will not meet the Singularity through these clones because you are not
in them. The Singularity itself will not come without AI and/or NT
taking off.
Also, there is no reason whatsoever to suppose an exponential RAMP in
abilities simply by the techniques you mention. No ramp, no
singularity. Thanks for playing.
> singularity doesn't get here anytime soon...well I'd rather have myselves
> guarding my cryovault, than someone else. At least my clones would have a
> sentimental attachment to my ancient ass. You care to take odds on who would
You have no idea that these clones would make better guards of your
cryovault. You have purposefully attempting to mold them to have no
concept of individuality and thus it is unlikely they would have
overmuch respect for your individuality. Do you really think this makes
you safer? It takes some individuality to form sentimental attachment
to another individual.
> be more likely to devitrify one of us in 200 years... society at large and
> 8th generation conventional descendants for you ...or a clan of selves who
> "know" they are a lifeform that wouldn't exist without you and really want
> to talk to you about how it all started? If nothing else...it sounds like
> an outstanding cryonics Trust, no?
No. It sounds like a rather hideous experiment that produces nothing
that is likely to be of any help.
- samantha
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