Re: GUNS: Re: Why Here?

From: Joe Dees (joedees@addall.com)
Date: Thu Sep 21 2000 - 17:21:40 MDT

('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is) >Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:42:19 -0400
>From: "Michael S. Lorrey" <retroman@turbont.net>
>To: extropians@extropy.org
>Subject: Re: GUNS: Re: Why Here?
>Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org
>
>Joe Dees wrote:
>>
>> >Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:45:09 -0700 (PDT)
>> >From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
>> >To: extropians@extropy.org
>> >Subject: GUNS: Re: Why Here?
>> >Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org
>> >
>> >
>> >The purpose of the Second Amendment is so that individuals acting
>> >either alone or in conjunction with their neighbors can protect
>> >themselves not only from criminals, but from any form of
>> >government, federal, state, city, what have you.
>> >
>> The full text of the 2nd amendment:
>>
>> A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
>>
>> As is blindingly obvious, well-regulated militias and the dependence of the security of free states upon them are the reasons given, WITHIN THE 1791 AMENDMENT ITSELF, for preserving the right to keep and bear arms.
>
>That is merely ONE reason, as anyone who has read the federalist papers can
>attest. I suggest you actually read them before you keep making yourself look
>silly.
>
I have read the Federalist Papers, and own a copy, but they are not the law of the land; the US Constitution and Amendments are - which is why I was addressing what they explicitly stated.
>> >
>> >As I've pointed out at length a number of times, it is already
>> >against existing federal law for kids, criminals, and psychos to
>> >buy or be in possession of firearms.
>> >
>> >A fact you continue to ignore.
>> >
>> But the loopholes in the laws could accommodate Mack trucks, certainly MAC-10's (previously purchased, or imported, assault weapons and clips were grandfathered in). The flea market and gun show loophole allows felons to purchase, and the 25% of dealers there who are private have no checking requirements on them. And about that I'm-a-collector-who-buys-a-thousand-of-the-same-model-each-week private citizen loophole - guess how the weapons find themselves into black markets?
>
>MAC-10's of what type? There are automatic and semi-automatic models. Automatic
>models are restricted under the NFA of 1934. Semi-automatic models CANNOT be
>easily converted to automatic models. I own an automatic MAC-11, which is the
>9mm version (the 10 is a .45 version).
>
One avenue to explore is to mandate that to be legal, semis must be designed so that they cannot be converted to full auto.
>
>Purchase of any gun by any felon who has not obtained a writ of relief from
>civil disability from a judge is itself a crime. Selling a gun to such a person
>is itself a crime.
>
But since a lot of those records, including state records from mental health boards as to incompetency and state court-issued peace bonds/restraining orders from spouses, are not computerized, NICS checks miss them. This problem will be corrected with time, of course.
>
>Both are felonies. The fact is that when a murder is
>committed, the prosecutor automatically drops the weapons charges 99.99% of the
>time in order to get a plea bargain on the killing. Whoever sold the gun
>illegally gets immunity in order to testify against the killer. The problem is
>not with the current laws, but with how they are prosecuted.
>
If the person is being put away for many years or life or being executed for the murder, the omportant thing is that (s)he is off the street and no longer a threat to others. If negotiations concerning weapons charges provide the prosecution with leverage tools in order to accomplish this, it's all right by me.
>
>Of the couple hundred thousand people who have been denied sales of guns under
>the Brady Laws insta-check system,
>
It is 400,000.
>
>less than a handful (literally) have been
>prosecuted and convicted. Enforce the laws as they are before you demand more
>new laws, buddy.
>
Actually, we need the new laws, and need to standardize the laws we have, so that they have teeth, as well as to close the loopholes by which someone may circumvent them by means of illegal purchase, so that they are effective. The much-ballyhooed 20,000 gun laws are a crazy-quilt of conflicting legislation varying widely from state to state. We could have less than a hundred laws, that would be much more effective in denying access to firearms to kids, criminals and psychos, if they were standardized.
>> >
>> >Here in Illinois we already have:
>> >
>> >1)Licensing
>> >
>> >2)Waiting periods
>> >
>> >3)Instant Background checks
>> >
>> >4) Chicago has a 20 year complete ban on handguns (except for the
>> >mayor and city council).
>> >
>> >Plus a variety of other laws, all to no effect.
>> >
>> I suggested others that would have more effect, and the NICS checks will have more effect once more of the relevant records are computerized, which is NOT the case presently.
>
>The relevant records are computerized. What the problem is is that a) the feds
>system is already obsolete and crashes regularly for days at a time b) states
>regularly add non-violent felony convictions to the records, which is illegal
>under the Brady Act, which causes many wrongful denials.
>
Actually, many of the relevant state records are either NOT presently computerized, or the databases in which they reside are not presently accessed during NICS checks. As I said before, time and modernization will take care of this, if it is focused upon as a goal to be realized.

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