From: Michael S. Lorrey (retroman@turbont.net)
Date: Sun May 07 2000 - 00:50:15 MDT
John M Grigg wrote:
>
> I have to admit this pursuit by Mike Lorrey to find out all he can about Michael Powers(Zero) is getting kind of surrealistic.
>
> Zero wrote in response to Senator Mike "Joe McCarthy" lorrey:
> My name (for the I-don't-know-how-manyth time) is Michael Powers.
>
> >What are you hiding?
>
> I am not *hiding* anything.
>
> >Who do you work for?
>
> I am self employed.
>
> >Are you a convict?
>
> No.
>
> >Are you a sexual predator?
>
> No.
>
> >Are you a fugitive?
>
> No.
>
> >Are you a communist or socialist?
>
> No.
>
> Zero continued:
> I post to this list I expect my opinions to stand or fall on their own merits, not on who I am or who people think I am.
> (end)
>
> Mike, the correct phrasing is "are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the communist party?" A rotten former commie could get away from you if the question is not phrased properly! ;) Seriously Mike, I think you would have made a damn good lawyer.
>
> I totally agree with Zero's final statement. It is certainly nice to know something about the background of the poster but it is not "a requirement."
>
> I personally chose to use my real name and share with the list members about my life so they would have a fuller understanding of me as a person. I feel I have benefitted from this, but it is a very personal choice.
>
> I realize Mike Lorrey is pressing home his argument about a transparent society, but he needs to do it without attacking Zero as a person. I am on a daily basis impressed by the quality of posts by both people and want them to continue their exchanges, but without becoming enemies.
>
> Zero wrote:
> Sorry, you can call me a "coward" if you like, but I tell my kids all the time that it is stupid to give out personal information about yourself to people you don't know. I think that rule applies equally well to adults as to kids. I don't know you.
> (end)
>
> A very good point that we all need to keep in mind. Zero has not only himself but his family to be concerned about. I believe Mike Lorrey is an honorable man, but there are many people on this list I do not know who might not be as trustworthy. I have gotten to the point with several listmembers where I feel I do know them and can trust them, but that takes time.
Yet what is the point of lobbying for a transparent society if the
proponent contradicts himself by telling his kids,"it is stupid to give
out personal information about yourself to people you don't know."??????
That is pure and total hypocrisy. I understand the point about not
attacking the person. The commonly accepted rules of debate mandate that
the parties participating are a) honorable b) are open, c) are honest,
and d) are straightforward. By his repeated demonstrations of hypocrisy,
his double dealing and self contradictory statements, he has
demonstrated to me that he is not a person who is entering the debate as
an equal, honest, and open party, that he is not to be trusted.
As I said in another post, totalitarians (fascist, socialist, what have
you) don't enter into debates like this as open and honest participants.
They use the rules of debate to hide their true motivations and true
goals. The worst crimes against humanity have occured in this century
specifically because good, honest, open people like us assumed that
people like that did not have ulterior motives, that they were honest in
their arguments and in their stated goals. We need to recognise that
such people can and are identifiable by the policies they espouse.
Granted some good and honest, but hopelessly naive or good intentioned
people can also honestly wind up with similar opinions. The only thing
that weeds out the wheat from the chaff is their intransigence, their
unwillingness to be confused by the facts.
One thing I've learned in my life is that when someone starts to act
like a scoundrel, and I call them on it, one key phrase always indicates
that something funny is going on. They always insist, almost verbatim
(its odd how this is), that,"I/we have no hidden agenda." That always
occures right before you wind up taking it up the backside.
Scoundrels can and do chameleon themselves as 'reasonable' people,
people that are trying to reach a 'reasonable accomodation'. They paint
themselves as the most reasonable people in the room, and their
opposition as a bunch of hopeless dreamers, or radical reactionaries.
For these reasons, when I see someone acting like Zero has done, the
hairs on the back of my head immediately get twitchy. Orwell had a good
way of describing people like them. He called them 'crypto-fascists' and
'crypto-communists', meaning that their true allegiance was hidden,
possibly even to themselves, but they were such individuals in
everything but name.
I've seen a sigline a person I know uses. It is: "Its easier to fight
for one's principles than live up to them." Its rather obvious that Mr.
Powers is living in a similar quandary. He thinks that we all should
open our lives up to the world so he can feel secure at night, but
doesn't want to divulge similar information about himself, because he
still beleives in the typical socialist precept that,"people are no damn
good." He may have legitimate concerns about personal security for his
family, this is understood. What he fails to grasp is that everyone else
in the world has a free and equal right to have such concerns for
themselves about him and people like him, as well as about the rest of
the human race, which is why a transparent society is the worst sort of
tyranny over the most number of people.
I don't need to know everything about Mr. Powers to feel secure, partly
because I know that people like him get the government to do their dirty
work for them. I am a law abiding person, so I know that anyone breaking
down my door is committing an illegal act, no matter who they work for.
The fact that Mr. Powers wants to strip me of my rights on so many
areas, but wants to use the government to do it is a rather blanket
indication that my earlier statement about Mr. Powers' possible
cowaradice is right on the money.
I suggest Mr. Powers lay off the Marx for a while and read up on Rand.
Mike Lorrey
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