From lf-lists at mattcorallo.com Tue Jun 20 17:00:45 2023 From: lf-lists at mattcorallo.com (Matt Corallo) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 10:00:45 -0700 Subject: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Bundled payments In-Reply-To: <5c088758-17fe-f88c-6f37-1fc8e2ab45e5@electrum.org> References: <86b99696-1a39-3a7c-b57a-11184c528df4@mattcorallo.com> <847f50d5-5a3a-dff1-f479-2191ee07a7bb@electrum.org> <5c088758-17fe-f88c-6f37-1fc8e2ab45e5@electrum.org> Message-ID: On 6/20/23 1:45?AM, Thomas Voegtlin wrote: - snip - > We have not implemented BOLT-12 yet in Electrum. Would you care to > describe whether bundled payments already would work with the current > specification, or whether they would require changes to BOLT-12? They will not as-specified, but because BOLT12 offers are reusable you will be able to scan a single offer and send two payments as long as the sender implements this. > We > are going to implement BOLT-12 support in Electrum in the coming > months, and I would be happy to help here. Great to hear that! > I believe that it will take years *after it is merged*, until BOLT-12 > actually becomes the dominant payment method on Lightning. Absolutely true. > OTOH, if > this feature was adopted in BOLT-11, I think it could be deployed much > faster. I'm not sure why? Indeed, BOLT-12 has some time to go in terms of getting off the ground floor, as it were, but a new BOLT-11 extension has to start from 0 - with zero implementations today and, worse, having to convince people to actually care enough to implement it. At least with BOLT-12 a client that is "swap-aware" you don't have to scan two QR codes or do any complicated dance. > The goal of my proposal is to level the field of competition between > Lightning service providers, by allowing reverse submarine swap > payments to come from any wallet (of course, a dedicated client will > still be needed to verify the redeem script and the invoice, and to > sweep the funds, as discussed above) I admit I still kinda struggle to see the value here - the user has to have a "swap-aware" client doing the swap setup and enforcement, but then can have any lightning wallet pay it. So it only really makes sense if the user has an on-chain wallet they want to use which is distinct from their lightning wallet (and their lightning wallet doesn't support splice-out, which presumably most will in a year or so). This seems like quite a narrow set of requirements to me. Matt