From joseph at lightning.network Tue Aug 11 23:50:29 2015 From: joseph at lightning.network (Joseph Poon) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 16:50:29 -0700 Subject: [Lightning-dev] ThunderNetwork - A Java LightningNetwork Implementation Working Today In-Reply-To: References: <20150811191043.GD8380@lightning.network> <20150811200618.GA1946@lightning.network> Message-ID: <20150811235029.GA21945@lightning.network> Hi Mats, On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 10:44:27PM +0200, Mats Jerratsch wrote: > Do you mind if I start calling it a Lightning Network Implementation > then? ;) I can't stop you from calling it whatever you want, however, I'm just concerned with any system which has some implicit level of trust, especially with long-term systemic risks (e.g. implications for fungibility, and other social accessibility costs). The goal of LN is to allow you to connect to anyone without the risk of the counterparty outright stealing or encumbering funds. So if the purpose is to get it working today with some trust compromises, then any potential design trust issues may be associated with LN. I don't want to encourage the use of systems which lets you maliciously encumber HTLC funds in transit and funding on main-net. As much as I would absolutely appreciate how a semi-trusted implementation would help counter the "Lightning doesn't exist" meme, it seems simpler to test with the new opcodes using dummy opcodes on testnet. I think we need not only the opcodes, but also long-term I see some kind of malleability fix and timestop as ideal if not necessary. > Also note that both these problems can be eliminated with OP_CLTV, > which will be implemented at least somewhat soon. Yes, if it uses the new opcodes similar to Rusty's construction, then it's a LN implementation for sure (it will especially help with HTLCs in transit). Do you expect any significant differences (beyond a balance reserve for just OP_CLTV)? I think a bitcoinj implementation of Lightning is sorely needed, for sure, and greatly appreciate any implementation, as it's a huge positive step for the bitcoin ecosystem! I feel like we might have gotten off on the wrong foot here (partially due to me misunderstanding the design), I think we both agree that scalability of bitcoin micropayments is something that is very important to the wider ecosystem and I'm looking forward to continuing developing these techonlogies with you! -- Joseph Poon