[p2p-research] [Commoning] abundance in agriculture

[Michel Bauwens]

I think there is indeed a big difference between the climates and what it
allows,

here in northern Thailand, which may be very similar to the Philippines,
things tend to grow profusely, and the two permaculture places I visited
seemed to be places of great enthusiasm, but I must note, these farms are by
no way self-sufficient, because they rely on training to outside people, and
the farming life is still hard, because of working and living in great heat
...

nevertheless, I think the level of human intervention required in temperate
climates such as the European ones, are a magnitude greater,

(as many people say here, the great social divide is access to
airconditioning and for the poor of the cities, to quietness ..)

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 8:33 PM, j.martin.pedersen <
m.pedersen at lancaster.ac.uk> wrote:

>
> On 03/01/11 01:30, Roberto Verzola wrote:
> > j.martin.pedersen wrote:
> >> The signal to noise ratio is probably not very conducive for this kind
> >> of discussion and there is a good chance that we are quite simply on
> >>
> > I sure hope we can continue this useful exchange. To meet your concern
> > about S/N ratio, I will try to keep my responses shorter. I have also
> > retitled this exchange on agriculture and separated it from the exchange
> > on the differences between agriculture, industrial, and information
> modes.
> >
> >> Not quite "just banter": firstly, one of the pride fruit trees of the UK
> >> (which human beings and other animals carried from Kazakhstan once upon
> >> a time) is the apple tree. There used to be more than 6000 varieties on
> >>
> > Ok then. I'll shift from banter to serious mode. I assure you that trees
> > in the Philippines can bear fruit and reproduce without human care, and
> > soils that are left alone for years will start growing initially weeds,
> > subsequently bushes and shrubs, and then trees (including some fruit
> > trees), in the process building up the soil and making it more fertile.
> > Even in the center of Manila, abandoned walled-off construction sites
> > that are left untouched soon show the start of this process of
> > colonization by wild plants. This is the heart of abundance in
> > agriculture: the built-in urge of every organism to reproduce itself,
> > and a related tendency in ecosystems to fill every available niche.
>
>
> I really find this exchange at some odd cross-purposes and
> misunderstanding. I don't quite understand what we are talking about,
> but I do notice that my example of "apples and avocados and probably
> others" have been rendered "all plants in the uk", while the avocado
> doesn't even really grow there. I am not sure why you would twist my
> words like that, but if I caused that to happen with my delivery then I
> take the responsibility for derailing the conversation.
>
> All I wanted to say is this: for hundreds of thousands of years human
> being have developed symbiotic relations with nature and nurtured a lot
> of plants, landscaped regions (the Andes is a very good example),
> facilitated some plants' growth and delimited others - and that this
> symbiotic relationship is an important aspect of contemporary autunomous
> and community-led development and agro-ecology approaches in the context
> of food sovereignty in order to counter the conservationist idea that
> nature is best left alone and without human touch, which is understood
> by conservationists to be harmful, *not* symbiotic. I don't deny that
> wasteland will be conquered by plants over time, but in this part of the
> world rarely by a lot of edible and eatable things unless perhaps you
> are clorophylliac.
>
> For what concerns permaculture in the UK it almost sounds like you don't
> quite understand what it is like to convert a temperate climate grass
> field into a forest and beds of crops - and bring up children, build and
> rebuild benders, pump water, struggle with the planning system and
> disgruntled neighbours and so on, while still being able to put food on
> the plate. All of these things are part of *living with nature*, unless
> you have a nice flat with a fridge and a supermarket for backup and just
> make excursions out into the abundance.
>
> But if you are right, then you really should come here, because the
> people I know and regularly visit are embedded in the core of the UK
> permaculture movement. Yes, it is about making things easier, and they
> do their best, training with each others, organising workshops, sharing
> skills and ideas between communities, but that doesn't mean it is a walk
> in the park, -- a lot of things have to be undone, redone and made and
> remade, until maybe 15-20 years down the line when the fruit trees start
> to cover an areas and carry fruits and provide firewood (after cutting
> grass around them, offering them gifts, doing ceremonies and communing
> with the spirits of the land to align with its energies and so on).
>
> Your comments about being misled I will just ignore, because I don't
> think they apply and some misunderstanding must be at the heart of this
>
> m
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>



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