[p2p-research] abundance in agriculture

[j.martin.pedersen]

On 03/01/11 01:30, Roberto Verzola wrote:
> j.martin.pedersen wrote:
>> The signal to noise ratio is probably not very conducive for this kind
>> of discussion and there is a good chance that we are quite simply on
>>   
> I sure hope we can continue this useful exchange. To meet your concern
> about S/N ratio, I will try to keep my responses shorter. I have also
> retitled this exchange on agriculture and separated it from the exchange
> on the differences between agriculture, industrial, and information modes.
> 
>> Not quite "just banter": firstly, one of the pride fruit trees of the UK
>> (which human beings and other animals carried from Kazakhstan once upon
>> a time) is the apple tree. There used to be more than 6000 varieties on
>>   
> Ok then. I'll shift from banter to serious mode. I assure you that trees
> in the Philippines can bear fruit and reproduce without human care, and
> soils that are left alone for years will start growing initially weeds,
> subsequently bushes and shrubs, and then trees (including some fruit
> trees), in the process building up the soil and making it more fertile.
> Even in the center of Manila, abandoned walled-off construction sites
> that are left untouched soon show the start of this process of
> colonization by wild plants. This is the heart of abundance in
> agriculture: the built-in urge of every organism to reproduce itself,
> and a related tendency in ecosystems to fill every available niche.


I really find this exchange at some odd cross-purposes and
misunderstanding. I don't quite understand what we are talking about,
but I do notice that my example of "apples and avocados and probably
others" have been rendered "all plants in the uk", while the avocado
doesn't even really grow there. I am not sure why you would twist my
words like that, but if I caused that to happen with my delivery then I
take the responsibility for derailing the conversation.

All I wanted to say is this: for hundreds of thousands of years human
being have developed symbiotic relations with nature and nurtured a lot
of plants, landscaped regions (the Andes is a very good example),
facilitated some plants' growth and delimited others - and that this
symbiotic relationship is an important aspect of contemporary autunomous
and community-led development and agro-ecology approaches in the context
of food sovereignty in order to counter the conservationist idea that
nature is best left alone and without human touch, which is understood
by conservationists to be harmful, *not* symbiotic. I don't deny that
wasteland will be conquered by plants over time, but in this part of the
world rarely by a lot of edible and eatable things unless perhaps you
are clorophylliac.

For what concerns permaculture in the UK it almost sounds like you don't
quite understand what it is like to convert a temperate climate grass
field into a forest and beds of crops - and bring up children, build and
rebuild benders, pump water, struggle with the planning system and
disgruntled neighbours and so on, while still being able to put food on
the plate. All of these things are part of *living with nature*, unless
you have a nice flat with a fridge and a supermarket for backup and just
make excursions out into the abundance.

But if you are right, then you really should come here, because the
people I know and regularly visit are embedded in the core of the UK
permaculture movement. Yes, it is about making things easier, and they
do their best, training with each others, organising workshops, sharing
skills and ideas between communities, but that doesn't mean it is a walk
in the park, -- a lot of things have to be undone, redone and made and
remade, until maybe 15-20 years down the line when the fruit trees start
to cover an areas and carry fruits and provide firewood (after cutting
grass around them, offering them gifts, doing ceremonies and communing
with the spirits of the land to align with its energies and so on).

Your comments about being misled I will just ignore, because I don't
think they apply and some misunderstanding must be at the heart of this

m