[p2p-research] interesting comment on openness in open stewadshipdiscussion

Sun Sep 12 22:26:12 CEST 2010

I fully agree Michael!!

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>wrote:

>  Michel,
>
> I agree completely with your statements below. My point however was to show
> that the "open" movement is part of historical processes--what is liberating
> under one set of conditions (where there are for example strong measures to
> ensure a strong educational experience for all) is quite different where
> such measures are not in place and for example the capacity to take
> advantage of the opportunities presented by open information are only
> effectively acccessible by a relatively small (and not necessarily publicly
> interested) minority.
>
> As was clear from the reaction to the original post many/most of those
> advocating "openness", see it in the (libertarian) context of removing
> government restrictions on individual action/influence rather than for
> example in the context of enabling/empowering communities to improve their
> collective position through advocay and the use of information.
>
> I think it is really important to continuously link the two positions that
> is (the preconditions/elements of support for) equity and openness otherwise
> the first issue "equity", tends to get lost in the claxons of triumph
> concerning the second "openness:.
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Michel Bauwens [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 12, 2010 12:17 PM
> *To:* p2p research network
> *Cc:* Michael Maranda; Michael Gurstein
> *Subject:* Re: [p2p-research] interesting comment on openness in open
> stewadshipdiscussion
>
> Hi Michael,'
>
> we should be aware of how the enemy uses and coopts terms, but should not
> accept defeat and keep redefining terms the way we mean them .... any term
> you can use, like sustainability, can become meaningless or have an opposite
> meaning,
>
> so openness can exist both in neoliberal and peer-driven contexts ...
>
> I fully understand that open data by itself is not enough or can be used
> counter-productively as your indian case study suggests,
>
> but surely, saying that therefore open data should remain secret, is pretty
> much like saying that literacy is bad, because equally, literacy create more
> inequality,
>
> surely, the right approach is to support open data, while at the same time
> expanding the conditions for its use and access in an equitable manner ...
>
> There can be no equality without access to information ...
>
> Michel
>
> On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>  I'm not sure how far I want to push this argument at this time (I
>> haven't completely thought it through)... But I'm not completely sure that
>> there is not a close association between "openness" and the neo-liberal
>> agenda of promoting individual opportunity and individual initiative at the
>> expense of collective effort and collective responsibility.  Where I'm
>> coming from on this is embedded in the blogposts I pointed to in my earlier
>> emails to this list but what open movement folks tend to ignore (and they
>> seemed quite startled about it when I pointed it out), is that not everyone
>> starts from the same place and thus the opportunities presented by
>> "openness" of various kinds have quite different significance and likelihood
>> of beneficial uptake depending on where you start from--blogpost 1
>>
>> **<http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/open-data-empowering-the-emp>
>> *http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/open-data-empowering-the-emp<http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/open-data-empowering-the-empowered-or-effective-data-use-for-everyone/>
>> ***owered-or-effective-data-use-for-everyone/
>> The traditional role of social contract anchored state structures has been
>> to provide at least some of the necessary elements (blogpost 2) as a
>> platform to ensure some degree of equalized opportunity.  The erosion of
>> this as a result of the onslaughts of neo-liberalism means that the "open"
>> movement is opening things up--data, culture, government etc.etc. for those
>> who are individual access to the elements necessary for making "effective
>> use" of these--a good education, access to technical resources, access to
>> capital etc.etc.  For those who don't start off with this type of socially
>> offered "silver spoon" -- tough luck in an "open world".
>> **<http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/open-data-2-effective-data-u>
>> *http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/open-data-2-effective-data-u<http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/open-data-2-effective-data-use/>
>> ***se/
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org [mailto:
>> p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org] *On Behalf Of *Michel Bauwens
>> *Sent:* Sunday, September 12, 2010 9:11 AM
>> *To:* Peer-To-Peer Research List
>> *Subject:* [p2p-research] interesting comment on openness in open
>> stewadshipdiscussion
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Facebook <notification+pjiidwm at facebookmail.com<notification%2Bpjiidwm at facebookmail.com>
>> >
>> Date: Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:18 PM
>> Subject: Michael Maranda also commented on his link.
>> To: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> Michael Maranda also commented on his link.
>>
>> Michael wrote:
>> "@Michel ... for the moment, we're just allowing it to reverberate in the
>> blogosphere.  But are soon going to have to have some kind of space.  Ning
>> is  a bit antithetical to this.  One option under consideration is
>> BuddyPress
>>
>> @Jeff I am headed to ChicagoCOUNTs at IIT -- I will have to address your
>> comments later.  But you have approached this from a very different point
>> than this was initially intended, at least in my expression.  Open Culture
>> as I used the term is an encompassing range of all the items in the list ...
>> "open access, architecture, currencies, data, government, hardware,
>> identity, knowledge, media, platforms, protocols, source code, spectrum, and
>> standards" .. assuming a non-exhaustive list.
>>
>> Openness in these contexts, is normative.   In many cases compelling
>> openness would be problematic and one may say detrimental to the freedom
>> implied in the concept.  That is, if I do something (alone or with others)
>> and I am not ready to share it, the openness doctrine should not compel me
>> to share it.   Of course in certain roles and for certain purposes we may
>> vey well wish too dictate such transparency.
>>
>> There is much more to say, but even in interpreting this from the sense of
>> Culture in the broadest human sense, and your hesitation at openness there,
>> I will say that as Culture is a process the natural mode is openness.
>>  Culture and Ethnicity are dynamic processes and ideas and cultural
>> practices cannot help but influence each other.
>>
>> Will reply more to other points at a later time.
>>
>> But one last point --Open Source itself is Utopian.  It's a direction we
>> as a culture are headed.  That doesn't mean we'll reach Utopia, but I do
>> have a sense that as a species we could all live together with considerably
>> more dignity and yet still not reach Utopia.  Better to shoot for the Moon
>> than to shoot at our foot."
>>
>>
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