[p2p-research] investment, productivity and ownership

Sun Nov 21 14:10:05 CET 2010

thanks Brian, appreciated the dialogue and the shock of perspectives,

Michel

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Brian Davey <briadavey at googlemail.com>wrote:

> "you are spending an extraordinary amount of energy to combat an
> enemy....."
>
> I don't think so - I'm just disagreeing with some of your emphases and
> terminology which seems to me to be misleading in the light of the
> limits to growth narrative.
>
> I have not said either that "no aspect of abundance is possible and
> cannot be talked about" - the issue here is one of generalisation, of
> how to characterise aggregate social and economic processes, the
> general trend into the future - where I think that terminologies for
> what we might hopefully achieve, and what we might aspire to, like
> "better balance" (in lifestyles, between humanity and the eco-system)
> are more appropriate than "abundance"....in my view.
>
> Its wise to be aware of this too:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias
>
> I'm afraid I'm going to have to park this discussion for a time as I
> have some major commitments to work on.
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Michel Bauwens
>  <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > that was poorly phrased indeed, as I in fact was aware of your prior
> > engagment, what it was supposed to mean was an opposition between
> 'positive'
> > social change, i.e. obtaining positive rights (end of slavery, etc.. ) as
> > opposed to "we have to prepare for the worst", i.e. a focus on the
> > negative, and your critique of digital-commons-cum-abundance; even that
> is
> > probably mis-phrased, since you are probably formulating that differently
> >
> > but the fact remains you are spending an extraordinary amount of energy
> to
> > combat an enemy, people who believe the digital commons are a key tool
> for
> > global social cooperation in the fight for a sustainable future and
> against
> > the pseudo-abundance of infinite material growth, instead of what I think
> is
> > the real enemy, i.e. those promoting that infinite  growth ...
> >
> > when I used to belong to the 'integral movement', originally I believe a
> > progressive movement, the enemy suddenly became postmodern academics who
> > didn't get it, and they evolved to become a neo-con movement. I believe
> your
> > current stress carries the same danger, i.e. a focus on people who are
> close
> > to you but 'don't get it totally right, instead of those on the other
> side
> > of the spectrum
> >
> > today we have forces who still believe in infinite growth, and they are
> > dominant
> >
> > then we have forces who are worried about sustainability and want to do
> > something about it
> >
> > with a radical wing who believes, with reason, in the darkest scenario
> that
> > it is the endgame
> >
> > I'm very close to the latter, though I prefer to work with scenarios, of
> > whom I'm not sure which one will prevail, and furthermore, they are
> > dependent on our actions; and I'm rather inclined to believe the new
> > consensus of people who have studied Peak Oil, i.e. a long drawn out
> descent
> > rather than a big crash
> >
> > then there is a question of how to formulate this,
> >
> > I'm inclined to an approach which has a positive narrative, i.e. we can
> > change this system, a vital tool to do this is global cooperation, and
> even
> > in a scenario of descent, people can live socially, culturally,
> meaningful
> > lives
> >
> > our difference reminds me of another personal experience,
> >
> > in christianity, and perhaps other religions as well, you have a eternal
> > tension between those who believe in this world, in which the divine is
> > incarnated, and which is the object of change; and the gnostic
> temptation,
> > like say the cathars, who believed that this world is evil incarnate, and
> > therefore, it is beyond salvation, and that any positive effort to change
> > it, can only lead to evil being displaced and emerging elsewhere; so
> > salvation can only occur in a totally different world or universe, the
> realm
> > of the true un-creator, rather than the evil creator of this fallen world
> > ...
> >
> > the insistence that, unlike even the experiences of our tribali
> > forefathers/mothers, in a sustainisable society, and in our way towards
> it,
> > no aspect of abundance is possible, and cannot even be talked about,
> seems
> > to  me to partake of the same fundamental life feeling,
> >
> > maybe this is all wrong, and a projection of my part, but I'm convincing
> > that you're disquiet against people like me, and environmental activists
> > like Roberto, the latter having fought for sustainability is whole life,
> is
> > such a projection as well,
> >
> > there are really more serious bad fish to fry, than those who are
> creating
> > digital commons and daily experience the abundance of immaterial
> exchange,
> > and want to preserve and build this rich social world, not just out of a
> > selfish desire, but in a context of building alternative structures, code
> > and design, that are crucial for sustainability
> >
> > I don't think your example of Churchill is correct, since he also
> promised
> > them victory, but yes, it is possible that such times will occur, and
> which
> > this is the only promise left, but be careful what you wish for
> >
> > now, here is an interesting hypothesis: what if the people who are
> leading
> > the charge for digital commons, are precisely those who indeed have faced
> > death and loss, and that their decision to commit their lives is
> precisely a
> > result of that existential shock, that they have decided, now is the time
> to
> > construct the alternatives, right now, because we do not have time to
> wait
> > anymore?
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Brian Davey <briadavey at googlemail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Michel
> >>
> >> I am 62 years old and all my adult life I have been involved in
> >> radical causes - I have helped set up tenants and residents
> >> associations which fought and defeated the city council here on part
> >> of its demolition programe, research and resources centres for
> >> community groups, groups for people to share video equipment and
> >> computers (in the days when they were new innovations, people did not
> >> know how to use them and they were expensive), health and safety at
> >> work groups, advocacy groups for mental health service users, a
> >> successful community garden that has involved hundreds and perhaps
> >> thousands of people since it was formed and, more recently, Transition
> >> Nottingham. I have also worked in East Germany, briefly in 1996 trying
> >> to show people how to do community development work.
> >>
> >> Thus I am a touch offended to be told, by someone who does not know
> >> me, that I am in " radical opposition as anything that smacks towards
> >> believing in positive social change".
> >>
> >> One of the most famous speeches in British history was by the
> >> conservative politician, Winston Churchill, early in World War Two. It
> >> is not a speech promising abundance nor, in your terms was it
> >> optimistic. Indeed, like your professor who told his students to be
> >> critical and fight, and according to you rendered them cynical, it
> >> went like this:
> >>
> >> "I say to the House as I said to ministers who have joined this
> >> government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat.
> >> We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before
> >> us many, many months of struggle and suffering."
> >>
> >> Sometimes Michel, one has to say things as they are and people respond
> >> to that - because its the truth as you see it - and as they can see
> >> it. People did respond, and somehow, also because the USA came into
> >> the war and Hitler was arrogant and stupid enough to invade Russia,
> >> the Allies won.
> >>
> >> Actually we may yet win the battle against climate change too - but
> >> only because the world economy is in such a perilous state anyway that
> >> like you, I do believe that the catastrophes that we face may not be
> >> so deep as to destroy civilisation but may nevertheless represent the
> >> necessary shocks to send us off in the directions that will save us.
> >>
> >> In the end I do not know. I do know however that the situation is very
> >> perilous and I would prefer to say that. I used to work in the
> >> voluntary sector mental health services and the message of Hamilton
> >> and Krasser makes a lot of sense to me. It is when people are obliged
> >> to confront the deeper realities of death and impermanence that they
> >> have the values shift which will underpin the kind of social and
> >> economic transformation that we want to see.
> >>
> >> Such deeper transformations are the basis for positive social change -
> >> and my advocacy of speaking the truth, as we see it, about the grave
> >> dangers facing us, is not therefore a radical opposition positive
> >> social change but the very foundations of it.
> >>
> >> Brian
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 12:06 AM, Michel Bauwens
> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > hi Brian,
> >> >
> >> > the passage of apocalyptic purity was not directed to you personally,
> >> > though
> >> > I see your radical opposition as anything that smacks towards
> believing
> >> > in
> >> > positive social change, as misguided
> >> >
> >> > I see it this way, pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will,
> as
> >> > I
> >> > believe Gramsci formulated
> >> >
> >> > I cannot see any advantage to choosing pessimism as a life strategy
> >> > (been
> >> > there, done that), as I can't see how it can mobilize any vital energy
> >> > for
> >> > change,
> >> >
> >> > imagine for one moment MLK or Gandhi saying, we know you are
> suffering,
> >> > and
> >> > it's gonna get worse, people are racist, they can't change, the
> >> > institutions
> >> > facing us are too strong, please endure, as it is going to get worse
> and
> >> > worse ...
> >> >
> >> > so, I rather choose, bad things are going to happen, it's gonna get
> >> > worse
> >> > before it gets better, but if we mobilize our energies, we can make a
> >> > better
> >> > future for all ....  we will not get where we hope to get, but if we
> >> > don't
> >> > try, it's going to be even worse, and even in the midst of chaos, we
> can
> >> > have an abundant life, like our tribal forefathers, who had so much
> less
> >> > in
> >> > material terms, yet had a consciousness of abundance (see marshall
> >> > sahlin);
> >> > the mainl difference is, they were content with an ultra local
> >> > embeddedness,
> >> > while we want to maintain the collective intelligence of global
> >> > interconnectedness ... like the feudal civilisation, when faced with
> the
> >> > global dislocation of the Roman Empire, choose relocalization, but
> with
> >> > the
> >> > global open design community that was the Catholic Church, only know
> we
> >> > wont' be using manuscripts, but global networks
> >> >
> >> > people learn through pedagogical catastrophes, and when push comes to
> >> > shove,
> >> > can change very rapidly, but, social forces have to be ready with
> >> > templates
> >> > and patterns they can use, lest they choose even worse alternatives;
> >> > these
> >> > patterns and solutions need to be recorded and made globally
> available,
> >> > and
> >> > I think this is the great and vital cultural, scientific, and
> spiritual
> >> > task
> >> > that digital commoners are undertaking; they are not content to
> complain
> >> > about the despair of an uncomprehending majority, maintained and
> helped
> >> > in
> >> > their  ignorance by global corporate media, but are vigorously
> building
> >> > a
> >> > multitude of alternative media and knowledge commons in all fields,
> from
> >> > agriculture and food production to healtcare, open software, open
> design
> >> > for
> >> > renewable energies, and many more
> >> >
> >> > Michel
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 6:48 AM, Brian Davey <
> briadavey at googlemail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Nor is this based on a desire for "apocalyptic purity". It is
> actually
> >> >> based on psychological evidence about a situation of which climate
> >> >> scientists have produced a lot of evidence:
> >> >>
> >> >> "Unrealistic optimism/wishful thinking
> >> >>
> >> >> Although we generally think of a willingness to face up to reality as
> >> >> a sign of mental
> >> >> health, Shelley Taylor (1989) reviews substantial empirical evidence
> >> >> indicating that
> >> >> the normal human mind interprets events in ways that promote “benign
> >> >> fictions”
> >> >> about oneself, the world and the future. Cultivating these benign
> >> >> fictions can be an
> >> >> adaptive response to an often unfriendly world that threatens to
> erode
> >> >> one’s selfbelief.
> >> >> Taylor defines this tendency towards “unrealistic optimism” as a
> >> >> proclivity that
> >> >> leads us to predict what we would prefer to see, rather than what is
> >> >> objectively most
> >> >> likely to happen (Taylor 1989, p. 33). High expectations that the
> 1997
> >> >> Kyoto Protocol
> >> >> would bring about substantial action may be an example of such a
> benign
> >> >> fiction.
> >> >> Yet within the phenomenon of unrealistic optimism it is important to
> >> >> distinguish
> >> >> between illusion and delusion. Illusions respond and adapt to reality
> >> >> as it forces itself
> >> >> on us, whereas delusions are held despite the evidence of the outside
> >> >> world.
> >> >> “Delusions are false beliefs that persist despite the facts.
> Illusions
> >> >> accommodate them,
> >> >> though perhaps reluctantly” (Taylor 1989, p. 36). Martin Seligman, an
> >> >> advocate of
> >> >> “learned optimism”, also recognises that cultivating optimism is
> >> >> helpful only when
> >> >> the future can be changed by positive thinking; when that is not the
> >> >> case “we must
> >> >> have the courage to endure pessimism” (Seligman 1991, p. 292). An
> >> >> example here is
> >> >> the rebranding of the December 2009 Copenhagen climate conference as
> >> >> “Hopenhagen,”1 which contradicts the belief of many climate
> scientists
> >> >> that even the
> >> >> best-conceivable agreement will not go far enough to avoid dangerous
> >> >> warming."
> >> >>
> >> >> From the psychology paper I cited earlier.
> >> >>
> >> >> As regards the state of the climate science - this paper suggests
> that
> >> >> a safe level of CO2 in the atmosphere is 350ppm. We are currently at
> >> >> 387ppm or thereabouts.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.1126
> >> >>
> >> >> The implications are a runaway process. You can call this apocalytic
> >> >> purity if you like. I call it science.
> >> >>
> >> >> Michel, I find your writings very interesting as a view of the future
> >> >> - were there not a climate and an energy and a banking crisis I would
> >> >> find them very convincing. I've learned a lot from them. However,
> they
> >> >> do not appear to take fully into account the gravity of the
> ecological
> >> >> crisis.
> >> >>
> >> >> Brian
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Brian
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > hi brian,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'd like to propose a counter-narrative I once read in a eco
> journal,
> >> >> > but
> >> >> > references are lost in the mist of time
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2 professors with similar type of students,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > one stresses the dire state of the environment, and urges students
> to
> >> >> > be
> >> >> > critical and fight
> >> >> >
> >> >> > the other takes them to the forests for foraging etc ..
> >> >> >
> >> >> > five years later, both groups are compared, the first have (mostly)
> >> >> > become
> >> >> > cynics and demoralized, while the second have (mostly) learned to
> >> >> > love
> >> >> > nature and have become protectors ...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think this is what p2p communities are doing, using the tools at
> >> >> > their
> >> >> > disposals to become sustainable, creating communities and networks,
> >> >> > learning
> >> >> > to love them, and wanting to protect them, not ouf of desire of
> >> >> > apocalyptic
> >> >> > purity, but to protect the richness of their lives,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Brian Davey
> >> >> > <briadavey at googlemail.com>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If so this is largely about the psychology of presentation:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> There are different ways of understanding this:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> " I, for one, welcome the coming apocalypse. We can have a world
> >> >> >> where
> >> >> >> all a man needs to make his way is some stubble, a mullet and a
> sawn
> >> >> >> off shot gun, and woman are beautiful, deadly and clad in leather.
> >> >> >> One
> >> >> >> can live by your wits and your nerve, fending off hordes of
> mutants,
> >> >> >> cannibals and assorted beasts.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "Much like Basingstoke on a Saturday night, in fact."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On a less humorous note:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "While fleeting reminders of death are shown to promote self
> >> >> >> interested and materialistic behaviour, folklore, philosophy and
> >> >> >> religion have long taught that that reflection on death
> >> >> >> 'concentrates
> >> >> >> the mind' in a way that makes possessions and social standing
> appear
> >> >> >> trivial and causes us to reflect on those deeper aspects of life
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> give our existence meaning. Those who have had near death
> >> >> >> experiences
> >> >> >> or life threatening illnesses are often transformed so that they
> see
> >> >> >> their lives as empty and self centred. 'Post traumatic growth
> >> >> >> theory'
> >> >> >> suggests that confrontation with one's mortality typically brings
> >> >> >> about a change in priorities, away from greed and vanity and
> towards
> >> >> >> greater emphasis on intimate relationships, a greater sense of
> >> >> >> personal strength, more openess to change and a deeper
> appreciation
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> life. Tests of the theory indicate that more sustained and
> >> >> >> considered
> >> >> >> reflection on death does indeed stimulate more intrinsic goals
> >> >> >> centred
> >> >> >> on building close relationships, personal growth and community
> >> >> >> betterment.....The expected effects of a changing climate over
> this
> >> >> >> century naturally stimulate thoughts of mortality - our own and
> >> >> >> those
> >> >> >> of our descendants, the vulnerable in poor countries and other
> >> >> >> species. We reflect too on the prospects for more abstract things
> >> >> >> like
> >> >> >> civilisation and progress. While it is tempting to suppress such
> >> >> >> thoughts, the evidence suggests that an open public engagement
> with
> >> >> >> notions of impermanence and death could have a salutary effect and
> >> >> >> contribute to a shift in value orientation that is both more
> mature
> >> >> >> and more protective of the environment. Reluctance to draw
> attention
> >> >> >> to the threats to our survival implied by the climate science
> fails
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> counter the tendency for people to resort to self focused and
> >> >> >> materialistic goals. Contrary to the prevailing 'don't scare the
> >> >> >> horses' approach of governments and environmental organisations,
> >> >> >> more
> >> >> >> conscious reflection on the meaning of climate disruption is
> likely
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> encourage more pro-social and less materialistic goals"
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> From Clive Hamilton "Requiem for a Species" Earthscan p214 (re
> >> >> >> Basingstoke ) and pp216-217 for the last long quote.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Clive Hamilton and psychologist Tim Kasser argued much the same
> >> >> >> thing
> >> >> >> in this paper,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "Psychological Adaptation to the Threats and Stresses of a Four
> >> >> >> Degree
> >> >> >> World". A paper for “Four Degrees and Beyond” conference, held in
> >> >> >> 2009
> >> >> >> at Oxford University. Available at:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> http://www.clivehamilton.net.au/cms/media/documents/articles/oxford_four_degrees_paper_final.pdf
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Maybe we will have to agree to disagree again!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> All the best
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Brian
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> > Hi Brian, thanks for this, our blog is at
> >> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > The way I see it, you see the overshoot, and the necessary
> >> >> >> > contraction
> >> >> >> > as
> >> >> >> > primary, and you want to warn humanity about the necesary
> >> >> >> > adaptation
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > an
> >> >> >> > age of scarcity,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > On my side, I believe that an overdue stress on the negative, is
> >> >> >> > politically
> >> >> >> > counterproductive and drives people to political forces who
> still
> >> >> >> > give
> >> >> >> > them
> >> >> >> > hope,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > therefore, a narrative which acknowledges sufficiency and
> >> >> >> > contraction,
> >> >> >> > but
> >> >> >> > stresses the abundance and happiness that comes both from
> physical
> >> >> >> > social
> >> >> >> > cooperation (relocalizing production), within a framework of
> >> >> >> > global
> >> >> >> > digital
> >> >> >> > cooperation (immaterial abundance), is more politically
> fruitful.
> >> >> >> > (in
> >> >> >> > addition, I'm convinced that we need that collective
> intelligence
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > adapt
> >> >> >> > to coming emergencies in the first place)
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I could be wrong, but I think this is the most important point
> and
> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> > key
> >> >> >> > difference,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Brian Davey
> >> >> >> > <briadavey at googlemail.com>
> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I'm not quite sure where to find your blog on the p2p site!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I was at the steady state conference where the presentation by
> >> >> >> >> Tim
> >> >> >> >> Jackson was shown. It was part of a much larger day with a huge
> >> >> >> >> amount
> >> >> >> >> of material being discussed. I've also met and discussed some
> of
> >> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> issues with him personally. So I have much sympathy with what
> he
> >> >> >> >> says
> >> >> >> >> - although I tend to feel that steady state economy theorists
> >> >> >> >> give
> >> >> >> >> an
> >> >> >> >> impression that we have choices about managing a steady state
> >> >> >> >> economy
> >> >> >> >> when maybe we have already overshoot the earth's carrying
> >> >> >> >> capacity
> >> >> >> >> so
> >> >> >> >> that the task first is to manage a rocky process of
> >> >> >> >> transformation
> >> >> >> >> which will, at first, include at least some economic
> contraction,
> >> >> >> >> at
> >> >> >> >> least in the so called "developed economies".
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> For all that his description of an engine of growth partly
> based
> >> >> >> >> on
> >> >> >> >> the production of novel consumer goods, that we do not really
> >> >> >> >> need,
> >> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> impress people that we do not really care about and who don't
> >> >> >> >> really
> >> >> >> >> care about us...is well made.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Some of us have recently had a discussion about "immaterial
> >> >> >> >> abundance"
> >> >> >> >> - but the problem is that when what impresses people is what we
> >> >> >> >> have
> >> >> >> >> (rather than what we are and what we do) then it is necessary
> >> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> >> people can see our flashy motor car, our fashionable clothes,
> our
> >> >> >> >> big
> >> >> >> >> house, our jewellry - it is neccessary to social psychological
> >> >> >> >> reward
> >> >> >> >> structures that goods take a material form and the symbolic
> value
> >> >> >> >> (look at me, look at me...the narcissism observable in the "How
> >> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> Spend it" supplements  of the Financial Times) have to be
> >> >> >> >> embedded
> >> >> >> >> in
> >> >> >> >> products that involve a throughput of energy and materials.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> It is in that context that I'm very uneasy about a narrative
> that
> >> >> >> >> appears to promise abundance - rather than a narrative based on
> a
> >> >> >> >> better balance - eg based on downshifting with less money
> income
> >> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> material goods but more time spent on satisfying activities
> with
> >> >> >> >> others, more time with and for otherrs, and simply more time to
> >> >> >> >> unwind
> >> >> >> >> from the stress of an otherwise unabalanced lifestyle....and at
> >> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> same time giving the planet a break by calling on it less for
> >> >> >> >> needs
> >> >> >> >> which are really about showing off....
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Finally, to return to the conference for which this video of
> Tim
> >> >> >> >> Jackson was made, and at which it was shown...during the last
> few
> >> >> >> >> months the organisers of the conference have been working very
> >> >> >> >> hard
> >> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> produce a comprehensive conference report of very many threads
> of
> >> >> >> >> thinking.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> It can be downloaded here
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> http://steadystate.org/enough-is-enough/
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> As I attended this conference I recommend reading it and seeing
> >> >> >> >> if
> >> >> >> >> we
> >> >> >> >> can start to draw the narratives of the commons movement and
> >> >> >> >> those
> >> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> >> p2p more into alignment or at least into a complementary form
> >> >> >> >> with
> >> >> >> >> these steady state ways of thinking so that we can work
> together
> >> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> create the collective changes in ways of thinking that are
> >> >> >> >> currently
> >> >> >> >> so desperately needed.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Brian Davey
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> > Dear Paul and friends,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > see http://vimeo.com/15970791
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > I wonder if you could have a look at this video, pen some
> >> >> >> >> > comments,
> >> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> >> > post
> >> >> >> >> > it to our blog?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > the context is a steady state economics conference and the
> >> >> >> >> > speaker
> >> >> >> >> > talks
> >> >> >> >> > about the system dynamics of the growth economy,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Think tank:
> >> >> >> >> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Think tank:
> >> >> >> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >> >
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Think tank:
> >> >> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >
> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >
> >> > Think tank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> > Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
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