[p2p-research] investment, productivity and ownership

Sun Nov 21 13:33:02 CET 2010

that was poorly phrased indeed, as I in fact was aware of your prior
engagment, what it was supposed to mean was an opposition between 'positive'
social change, i.e. obtaining positive rights (end of slavery, etc.. ) as
opposed to "we have to prepare for the worst", i.e. a focus on the
negative, and your critique of digital-commons-cum-abundance; even that is
probably mis-phrased, since you are probably formulating that differently

but the fact remains you are spending an extraordinary amount of energy to
combat an enemy, people who believe the digital commons are a key tool for
global social cooperation in the fight for a sustainable future and against
the pseudo-abundance of infinite material growth, instead of what I think is
the real enemy, i.e. those promoting that infinite  growth ...

when I used to belong to the 'integral movement', originally I believe a
progressive movement, the enemy suddenly became postmodern academics who
didn't get it, and they evolved to become a neo-con movement. I believe your
current stress carries the same danger, i.e. a focus on people who are close
to you but 'don't get it totally right, instead of those on the other side
of the spectrum

today we have forces who still believe in infinite growth, and they are
dominant

then we have forces who are worried about sustainability and want to do
something about it

with a radical wing who believes, with reason, in the darkest scenario that
it is the endgame

I'm very close to the latter, though I prefer to work with scenarios, of
whom I'm not sure which one will prevail, and furthermore, they are
dependent on our actions; and I'm rather inclined to believe the new
consensus of people who have studied Peak Oil, i.e. a long drawn out descent
rather than a big crash

then there is a question of how to formulate this,

I'm inclined to an approach which has a positive narrative, i.e. we can
change this system, a vital tool to do this is global cooperation, and even
in a scenario of descent, people can live socially, culturally, meaningful
lives

our difference reminds me of another personal experience,

in christianity, and perhaps other religions as well, you have a eternal
tension between those who believe in this world, in which the divine is
incarnated, and which is the object of change; and the gnostic temptation,
like say the cathars, who believed that this world is evil incarnate, and
therefore, it is beyond salvation, and that any positive effort to change
it, can only lead to evil being displaced and emerging elsewhere; so
salvation can only occur in a totally different world or universe, the realm
of the true un-creator, rather than the evil creator of this fallen world
...

the insistence that, unlike even the experiences of our tribali
forefathers/mothers, in a sustainisable society, and in our way towards it,
no aspect of abundance is possible, and cannot even be talked about, seems
to  me to partake of the same fundamental life feeling,

maybe this is all wrong, and a projection of my part, but I'm convincing
that you're disquiet against people like me, and environmental activists
like Roberto, the latter having fought for sustainability is whole life, is
such a projection as well,

there are really more serious bad fish to fry, than those who are creating
digital commons and daily experience the abundance of immaterial exchange,
and want to preserve and build this rich social world, not just out of a
selfish desire, but in a context of building alternative structures, code
and design, that are crucial for sustainability

I don't think your example of Churchill is correct, since he also promised
them victory, but yes, it is possible that such times will occur, and which
this is the only promise left, but be careful what you wish for

now, here is an interesting hypothesis: what if the people who are leading
the charge for digital commons, are precisely those who indeed have faced
death and loss, and that their decision to commit their lives is precisely a
result of that existential shock, that they have decided, now is the time to
construct the alternatives, right now, because we do not have time to wait
anymore?

Michel

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Brian Davey <briadavey at googlemail.com>wrote:

> Michel
>
> I am 62 years old and all my adult life I have been involved in
> radical causes - I have helped set up tenants and residents
> associations which fought and defeated the city council here on part
> of its demolition programe, research and resources centres for
> community groups, groups for people to share video equipment and
> computers (in the days when they were new innovations, people did not
> know how to use them and they were expensive), health and safety at
> work groups, advocacy groups for mental health service users, a
> successful community garden that has involved hundreds and perhaps
> thousands of people since it was formed and, more recently, Transition
> Nottingham. I have also worked in East Germany, briefly in 1996 trying
> to show people how to do community development work.
>
> Thus I am a touch offended to be told, by someone who does not know
> me, that I am in " radical opposition as anything that smacks towards
> believing in positive social change".
>
> One of the most famous speeches in British history was by the
> conservative politician, Winston Churchill, early in World War Two. It
> is not a speech promising abundance nor, in your terms was it
> optimistic. Indeed, like your professor who told his students to be
> critical and fight, and according to you rendered them cynical, it
> went like this:
>
> "I say to the House as I said to ministers who have joined this
> government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat.
> We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before
> us many, many months of struggle and suffering."
>
> Sometimes Michel, one has to say things as they are and people respond
> to that - because its the truth as you see it - and as they can see
> it. People did respond, and somehow, also because the USA came into
> the war and Hitler was arrogant and stupid enough to invade Russia,
> the Allies won.
>
> Actually we may yet win the battle against climate change too - but
> only because the world economy is in such a perilous state anyway that
> like you, I do believe that the catastrophes that we face may not be
> so deep as to destroy civilisation but may nevertheless represent the
> necessary shocks to send us off in the directions that will save us.
>
> In the end I do not know. I do know however that the situation is very
> perilous and I would prefer to say that. I used to work in the
> voluntary sector mental health services and the message of Hamilton
> and Krasser makes a lot of sense to me. It is when people are obliged
> to confront the deeper realities of death and impermanence that they
> have the values shift which will underpin the kind of social and
> economic transformation that we want to see.
>
> Such deeper transformations are the basis for positive social change -
> and my advocacy of speaking the truth, as we see it, about the grave
> dangers facing us, is not therefore a radical opposition positive
> social change but the very foundations of it.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 12:06 AM, Michel Bauwens
>  <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > hi Brian,
> >
> > the passage of apocalyptic purity was not directed to you personally,
> though
> > I see your radical opposition as anything that smacks towards believing
> in
> > positive social change, as misguided
> >
> > I see it this way, pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will, as I
> > believe Gramsci formulated
> >
> > I cannot see any advantage to choosing pessimism as a life strategy (been
> > there, done that), as I can't see how it can mobilize any vital energy
> for
> > change,
> >
> > imagine for one moment MLK or Gandhi saying, we know you are suffering,
> and
> > it's gonna get worse, people are racist, they can't change, the
> institutions
> > facing us are too strong, please endure, as it is going to get worse and
> > worse ...
> >
> > so, I rather choose, bad things are going to happen, it's gonna get worse
> > before it gets better, but if we mobilize our energies, we can make a
> better
> > future for all ....  we will not get where we hope to get, but if we
> don't
> > try, it's going to be even worse, and even in the midst of chaos, we can
> > have an abundant life, like our tribal forefathers, who had so much less
> in
> > material terms, yet had a consciousness of abundance (see marshall
> sahlin);
> > the mainl difference is, they were content with an ultra local
> embeddedness,
> > while we want to maintain the collective intelligence of global
> > interconnectedness ... like the feudal civilisation, when faced with the
> > global dislocation of the Roman Empire, choose relocalization, but with
> the
> > global open design community that was the Catholic Church, only know we
> > wont' be using manuscripts, but global networks
> >
> > people learn through pedagogical catastrophes, and when push comes to
> shove,
> > can change very rapidly, but, social forces have to be ready with
> templates
> > and patterns they can use, lest they choose even worse alternatives;
> these
> > patterns and solutions need to be recorded and made globally available,
> and
> > I think this is the great and vital cultural, scientific, and spiritual
> task
> > that digital commoners are undertaking; they are not content to complain
> > about the despair of an uncomprehending majority, maintained and helped
> in
> > their  ignorance by global corporate media, but are vigorously building a
> > multitude of alternative media and knowledge commons in all fields, from
> > agriculture and food production to healtcare, open software, open design
> for
> > renewable energies, and many more
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 6:48 AM, Brian Davey <briadavey at googlemail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Nor is this based on a desire for "apocalyptic purity". It is actually
> >> based on psychological evidence about a situation of which climate
> >> scientists have produced a lot of evidence:
> >>
> >> "Unrealistic optimism/wishful thinking
> >>
> >> Although we generally think of a willingness to face up to reality as
> >> a sign of mental
> >> health, Shelley Taylor (1989) reviews substantial empirical evidence
> >> indicating that
> >> the normal human mind interprets events in ways that promote “benign
> >> fictions”
> >> about oneself, the world and the future. Cultivating these benign
> >> fictions can be an
> >> adaptive response to an often unfriendly world that threatens to erode
> >> one’s selfbelief.
> >> Taylor defines this tendency towards “unrealistic optimism” as a
> >> proclivity that
> >> leads us to predict what we would prefer to see, rather than what is
> >> objectively most
> >> likely to happen (Taylor 1989, p. 33). High expectations that the 1997
> >> Kyoto Protocol
> >> would bring about substantial action may be an example of such a benign
> >> fiction.
> >> Yet within the phenomenon of unrealistic optimism it is important to
> >> distinguish
> >> between illusion and delusion. Illusions respond and adapt to reality
> >> as it forces itself
> >> on us, whereas delusions are held despite the evidence of the outside
> >> world.
> >> “Delusions are false beliefs that persist despite the facts. Illusions
> >> accommodate them,
> >> though perhaps reluctantly” (Taylor 1989, p. 36). Martin Seligman, an
> >> advocate of
> >> “learned optimism”, also recognises that cultivating optimism is
> >> helpful only when
> >> the future can be changed by positive thinking; when that is not the
> >> case “we must
> >> have the courage to endure pessimism” (Seligman 1991, p. 292). An
> >> example here is
> >> the rebranding of the December 2009 Copenhagen climate conference as
> >> “Hopenhagen,”1 which contradicts the belief of many climate scientists
> >> that even the
> >> best-conceivable agreement will not go far enough to avoid dangerous
> >> warming."
> >>
> >> From the psychology paper I cited earlier.
> >>
> >> As regards the state of the climate science - this paper suggests that
> >> a safe level of CO2 in the atmosphere is 350ppm. We are currently at
> >> 387ppm or thereabouts.
> >>
> >> http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.1126
> >>
> >> The implications are a runaway process. You can call this apocalytic
> >> purity if you like. I call it science.
> >>
> >> Michel, I find your writings very interesting as a view of the future
> >> - were there not a climate and an energy and a banking crisis I would
> >> find them very convincing. I've learned a lot from them. However, they
> >> do not appear to take fully into account the gravity of the ecological
> >> crisis.
> >>
> >> Brian
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Brian
> >>
> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > hi brian,
> >> >
> >> > I'd like to propose a counter-narrative I once read in a eco journal,
> >> > but
> >> > references are lost in the mist of time
> >> >
> >> > 2 professors with similar type of students,
> >> >
> >> > one stresses the dire state of the environment, and urges students to
> be
> >> > critical and fight
> >> >
> >> > the other takes them to the forests for foraging etc ..
> >> >
> >> > five years later, both groups are compared, the first have (mostly)
> >> > become
> >> > cynics and demoralized, while the second have (mostly) learned to love
> >> > nature and have become protectors ...
> >> >
> >> > I think this is what p2p communities are doing, using the tools at
> their
> >> > disposals to become sustainable, creating communities and networks,
> >> > learning
> >> > to love them, and wanting to protect them, not ouf of desire of
> >> > apocalyptic
> >> > purity, but to protect the richness of their lives,
> >> >
> >> > Michel
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Brian Davey <
> briadavey at googlemail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> If so this is largely about the psychology of presentation:
> >> >>
> >> >> There are different ways of understanding this:
> >> >>
> >> >> " I, for one, welcome the coming apocalypse. We can have a world
> where
> >> >> all a man needs to make his way is some stubble, a mullet and a sawn
> >> >> off shot gun, and woman are beautiful, deadly and clad in leather.
> One
> >> >> can live by your wits and your nerve, fending off hordes of mutants,
> >> >> cannibals and assorted beasts.
> >> >>
> >> >> "Much like Basingstoke on a Saturday night, in fact."
> >> >>
> >> >> On a less humorous note:
> >> >>
> >> >> "While fleeting reminders of death are shown to promote self
> >> >> interested and materialistic behaviour, folklore, philosophy and
> >> >> religion have long taught that that reflection on death 'concentrates
> >> >> the mind' in a way that makes possessions and social standing appear
> >> >> trivial and causes us to reflect on those deeper aspects of life that
> >> >> give our existence meaning. Those who have had near death experiences
> >> >> or life threatening illnesses are often transformed so that they see
> >> >> their lives as empty and self centred. 'Post traumatic growth theory'
> >> >> suggests that confrontation with one's mortality typically brings
> >> >> about a change in priorities, away from greed and vanity and towards
> >> >> greater emphasis on intimate relationships, a greater sense of
> >> >> personal strength, more openess to change and a deeper appreciation
> of
> >> >> life. Tests of the theory indicate that more sustained and considered
> >> >> reflection on death does indeed stimulate more intrinsic goals
> centred
> >> >> on building close relationships, personal growth and community
> >> >> betterment.....The expected effects of a changing climate over this
> >> >> century naturally stimulate thoughts of mortality - our own and those
> >> >> of our descendants, the vulnerable in poor countries and other
> >> >> species. We reflect too on the prospects for more abstract things
> like
> >> >> civilisation and progress. While it is tempting to suppress such
> >> >> thoughts, the evidence suggests that an open public engagement with
> >> >> notions of impermanence and death could have a salutary effect and
> >> >> contribute to a shift in value orientation that is both more mature
> >> >> and more protective of the environment. Reluctance to draw attention
> >> >> to the threats to our survival implied by the climate science fails
> to
> >> >> counter the tendency for people to resort to self focused and
> >> >> materialistic goals. Contrary to the prevailing 'don't scare the
> >> >> horses' approach of governments and environmental organisations, more
> >> >> conscious reflection on the meaning of climate disruption is likely
> to
> >> >> encourage more pro-social and less materialistic goals"
> >> >>
> >> >> From Clive Hamilton "Requiem for a Species" Earthscan p214 (re
> >> >> Basingstoke ) and pp216-217 for the last long quote.
> >> >>
> >> >> Clive Hamilton and psychologist Tim Kasser argued much the same thing
> >> >> in this paper,
> >> >>
> >> >> "Psychological Adaptation to the Threats and Stresses of a Four
> Degree
> >> >> World". A paper for “Four Degrees and Beyond” conference, held in
> 2009
> >> >> at Oxford University. Available at:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> http://www.clivehamilton.net.au/cms/media/documents/articles/oxford_four_degrees_paper_final.pdf
> >> >>
> >> >> Maybe we will have to agree to disagree again!
> >> >>
> >> >> All the best
> >> >>
> >> >> Brian
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Hi Brian, thanks for this, our blog is at
> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The way I see it, you see the overshoot, and the necessary
> >> >> > contraction
> >> >> > as
> >> >> > primary, and you want to warn humanity about the necesary
> adaptation
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > an
> >> >> > age of scarcity,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On my side, I believe that an overdue stress on the negative, is
> >> >> > politically
> >> >> > counterproductive and drives people to political forces who still
> >> >> > give
> >> >> > them
> >> >> > hope,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > therefore, a narrative which acknowledges sufficiency and
> >> >> > contraction,
> >> >> > but
> >> >> > stresses the abundance and happiness that comes both from physical
> >> >> > social
> >> >> > cooperation (relocalizing production), within a framework of global
> >> >> > digital
> >> >> > cooperation (immaterial abundance), is more politically fruitful.
> (in
> >> >> > addition, I'm convinced that we need that collective intelligence
> to
> >> >> > adapt
> >> >> > to coming emergencies in the first place)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I could be wrong, but I think this is the most important point and
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > key
> >> >> > difference,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Brian Davey
> >> >> > <briadavey at googlemail.com>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I'm not quite sure where to find your blog on the p2p site!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I was at the steady state conference where the presentation by Tim
> >> >> >> Jackson was shown. It was part of a much larger day with a huge
> >> >> >> amount
> >> >> >> of material being discussed. I've also met and discussed some of
> the
> >> >> >> issues with him personally. So I have much sympathy with what he
> >> >> >> says
> >> >> >> - although I tend to feel that steady state economy theorists give
> >> >> >> an
> >> >> >> impression that we have choices about managing a steady state
> >> >> >> economy
> >> >> >> when maybe we have already overshoot the earth's carrying capacity
> >> >> >> so
> >> >> >> that the task first is to manage a rocky process of transformation
> >> >> >> which will, at first, include at least some economic contraction,
> at
> >> >> >> least in the so called "developed economies".
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> For all that his description of an engine of growth partly based
> on
> >> >> >> the production of novel consumer goods, that we do not really
> need,
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> impress people that we do not really care about and who don't
> really
> >> >> >> care about us...is well made.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Some of us have recently had a discussion about "immaterial
> >> >> >> abundance"
> >> >> >> - but the problem is that when what impresses people is what we
> have
> >> >> >> (rather than what we are and what we do) then it is necessary that
> >> >> >> people can see our flashy motor car, our fashionable clothes, our
> >> >> >> big
> >> >> >> house, our jewellry - it is neccessary to social psychological
> >> >> >> reward
> >> >> >> structures that goods take a material form and the symbolic value
> >> >> >> (look at me, look at me...the narcissism observable in the "How to
> >> >> >> Spend it" supplements  of the Financial Times) have to be embedded
> >> >> >> in
> >> >> >> products that involve a throughput of energy and materials.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It is in that context that I'm very uneasy about a narrative that
> >> >> >> appears to promise abundance - rather than a narrative based on a
> >> >> >> better balance - eg based on downshifting with less money income
> and
> >> >> >> material goods but more time spent on satisfying activities with
> >> >> >> others, more time with and for otherrs, and simply more time to
> >> >> >> unwind
> >> >> >> from the stress of an otherwise unabalanced lifestyle....and at
> the
> >> >> >> same time giving the planet a break by calling on it less for
> needs
> >> >> >> which are really about showing off....
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Finally, to return to the conference for which this video of Tim
> >> >> >> Jackson was made, and at which it was shown...during the last few
> >> >> >> months the organisers of the conference have been working very
> hard
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> produce a comprehensive conference report of very many threads of
> >> >> >> thinking.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It can be downloaded here
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> http://steadystate.org/enough-is-enough/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> As I attended this conference I recommend reading it and seeing if
> >> >> >> we
> >> >> >> can start to draw the narratives of the commons movement and those
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> p2p more into alignment or at least into a complementary form with
> >> >> >> these steady state ways of thinking so that we can work together
> to
> >> >> >> create the collective changes in ways of thinking that are
> currently
> >> >> >> so desperately needed.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Brian Davey
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > Dear Paul and friends,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > see http://vimeo.com/15970791
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I wonder if you could have a look at this video, pen some
> >> >> >> > comments,
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > post
> >> >> >> > it to our blog?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > the context is a steady state economics conference and the
> speaker
> >> >> >> > talks
> >> >> >> > about the system dynamics of the growth economy,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Think tank:
> >> >> >> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >> >
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Think tank:
> >> >> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >
> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >
> >> > Think tank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> > Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
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