[p2p-research] investment, productivity and ownership

Sun Nov 21 01:06:06 CET 2010

hi Brian,

the passage of apocalyptic purity was not directed to you personally, though
I see your radical opposition as anything that smacks towards believing in
positive social change, as misguided

I see it this way, pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will, as I
believe Gramsci formulated

I cannot see any advantage to choosing pessimism as a life strategy (been
there, done that), as I can't see how it can mobilize any vital energy for
change,

imagine for one moment MLK or Gandhi saying, we know you are suffering, and
it's gonna get worse, people are racist, they can't change, the institutions
facing us are too strong, please endure, as it is going to get worse and
worse ...

so, I rather choose, bad things are going to happen, it's gonna get worse
before it gets better, but if we mobilize our energies, we can make a better
future for all ....  we will not get where we hope to get, but if we don't
try, it's going to be even worse, and even in the midst of chaos, we can
have an abundant life, like our tribal forefathers, who had so much less in
material terms, yet had a consciousness of abundance (see marshall sahlin);
the mainl difference is, they were content with an ultra local embeddedness,
while we want to maintain the collective intelligence of global
interconnectedness ... like the feudal civilisation, when faced with the
global dislocation of the Roman Empire, choose relocalization, but with the
global open design community that was the Catholic Church, only know we
wont' be using manuscripts, but global networks

people learn through pedagogical catastrophes, and when push comes to shove,
can change very rapidly, but, social forces have to be ready with templates
and patterns they can use, lest they choose even worse alternatives; these
patterns and solutions need to be recorded and made globally available, and
I think this is the great and vital cultural, scientific, and spiritual task
that digital commoners are undertaking; they are not content to complain
about the despair of an uncomprehending majority, maintained and helped in
their  ignorance by global corporate media, but are vigorously building a
multitude of alternative media and knowledge commons in all fields, from
agriculture and food production to healtcare, open software, open design for
renewable energies, and many more

Michel

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 6:48 AM, Brian Davey <briadavey at googlemail.com>wrote:

> Nor is this based on a desire for "apocalyptic purity". It is actually
> based on psychological evidence about a situation of which climate
> scientists have produced a lot of evidence:
>
> "Unrealistic optimism/wishful thinking
>
> Although we generally think of a willingness to face up to reality as
> a sign of mental
> health, Shelley Taylor (1989) reviews substantial empirical evidence
> indicating that
> the normal human mind interprets events in ways that promote “benign
> fictions”
> about oneself, the world and the future. Cultivating these benign
> fictions can be an
> adaptive response to an often unfriendly world that threatens to erode
> one’s selfbelief.
> Taylor defines this tendency towards “unrealistic optimism” as a proclivity
> that
> leads us to predict what we would prefer to see, rather than what is
> objectively most
> likely to happen (Taylor 1989, p. 33). High expectations that the 1997
> Kyoto Protocol
> would bring about substantial action may be an example of such a benign
> fiction.
> Yet within the phenomenon of unrealistic optimism it is important to
> distinguish
> between illusion and delusion. Illusions respond and adapt to reality
> as it forces itself
> on us, whereas delusions are held despite the evidence of the outside
> world.
> “Delusions are false beliefs that persist despite the facts. Illusions
> accommodate them,
> though perhaps reluctantly” (Taylor 1989, p. 36). Martin Seligman, an
> advocate of
> “learned optimism”, also recognises that cultivating optimism is
> helpful only when
> the future can be changed by positive thinking; when that is not the
> case “we must
> have the courage to endure pessimism” (Seligman 1991, p. 292). An
> example here is
> the rebranding of the December 2009 Copenhagen climate conference as
> “Hopenhagen,”1 which contradicts the belief of many climate scientists
> that even the
> best-conceivable agreement will not go far enough to avoid dangerous
> warming."
>
> From the psychology paper I cited earlier.
>
> As regards the state of the climate science - this paper suggests that
> a safe level of CO2 in the atmosphere is 350ppm. We are currently at
> 387ppm or thereabouts.
>
> http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.1126
>
> The implications are a runaway process. You can call this apocalytic
> purity if you like. I call it science.
>
> Michel, I find your writings very interesting as a view of the future
> - were there not a climate and an energy and a banking crisis I would
> find them very convincing. I've learned a lot from them. However, they
> do not appear to take fully into account the gravity of the ecological
> crisis.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> Brian
>
> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > hi brian,
> >
> > I'd like to propose a counter-narrative I once read in a eco journal, but
> > references are lost in the mist of time
> >
> > 2 professors with similar type of students,
> >
> > one stresses the dire state of the environment, and urges students to be
> > critical and fight
> >
> > the other takes them to the forests for foraging etc ..
> >
> > five years later, both groups are compared, the first have (mostly)
> become
> > cynics and demoralized, while the second have (mostly) learned to love
> > nature and have become protectors ...
> >
> > I think this is what p2p communities are doing, using the tools at their
> > disposals to become sustainable, creating communities and networks,
> learning
> > to love them, and wanting to protect them, not ouf of desire of
> apocalyptic
> > purity, but to protect the richness of their lives,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Brian Davey <briadavey at googlemail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> If so this is largely about the psychology of presentation:
> >>
> >> There are different ways of understanding this:
> >>
> >> " I, for one, welcome the coming apocalypse. We can have a world where
> >> all a man needs to make his way is some stubble, a mullet and a sawn
> >> off shot gun, and woman are beautiful, deadly and clad in leather. One
> >> can live by your wits and your nerve, fending off hordes of mutants,
> >> cannibals and assorted beasts.
> >>
> >> "Much like Basingstoke on a Saturday night, in fact."
> >>
> >> On a less humorous note:
> >>
> >> "While fleeting reminders of death are shown to promote self
> >> interested and materialistic behaviour, folklore, philosophy and
> >> religion have long taught that that reflection on death 'concentrates
> >> the mind' in a way that makes possessions and social standing appear
> >> trivial and causes us to reflect on those deeper aspects of life that
> >> give our existence meaning. Those who have had near death experiences
> >> or life threatening illnesses are often transformed so that they see
> >> their lives as empty and self centred. 'Post traumatic growth theory'
> >> suggests that confrontation with one's mortality typically brings
> >> about a change in priorities, away from greed and vanity and towards
> >> greater emphasis on intimate relationships, a greater sense of
> >> personal strength, more openess to change and a deeper appreciation of
> >> life. Tests of the theory indicate that more sustained and considered
> >> reflection on death does indeed stimulate more intrinsic goals centred
> >> on building close relationships, personal growth and community
> >> betterment.....The expected effects of a changing climate over this
> >> century naturally stimulate thoughts of mortality - our own and those
> >> of our descendants, the vulnerable in poor countries and other
> >> species. We reflect too on the prospects for more abstract things like
> >> civilisation and progress. While it is tempting to suppress such
> >> thoughts, the evidence suggests that an open public engagement with
> >> notions of impermanence and death could have a salutary effect and
> >> contribute to a shift in value orientation that is both more mature
> >> and more protective of the environment. Reluctance to draw attention
> >> to the threats to our survival implied by the climate science fails to
> >> counter the tendency for people to resort to self focused and
> >> materialistic goals. Contrary to the prevailing 'don't scare the
> >> horses' approach of governments and environmental organisations, more
> >> conscious reflection on the meaning of climate disruption is likely to
> >> encourage more pro-social and less materialistic goals"
> >>
> >> From Clive Hamilton "Requiem for a Species" Earthscan p214 (re
> >> Basingstoke ) and pp216-217 for the last long quote.
> >>
> >> Clive Hamilton and psychologist Tim Kasser argued much the same thing
> >> in this paper,
> >>
> >> "Psychological Adaptation to the Threats and Stresses of a Four Degree
> >> World". A paper for “Four Degrees and Beyond” conference, held in 2009
> >> at Oxford University. Available at:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://www.clivehamilton.net.au/cms/media/documents/articles/oxford_four_degrees_paper_final.pdf
> >>
> >> Maybe we will have to agree to disagree again!
> >>
> >> All the best
> >>
> >> Brian
> >>
> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Hi Brian, thanks for this, our blog is at
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > The way I see it, you see the overshoot, and the necessary contraction
> >> > as
> >> > primary, and you want to warn humanity about the necesary adaptation
> to
> >> > an
> >> > age of scarcity,
> >> >
> >> > On my side, I believe that an overdue stress on the negative, is
> >> > politically
> >> > counterproductive and drives people to political forces who still give
> >> > them
> >> > hope,
> >> >
> >> > therefore, a narrative which acknowledges sufficiency and contraction,
> >> > but
> >> > stresses the abundance and happiness that comes both from physical
> >> > social
> >> > cooperation (relocalizing production), within a framework of global
> >> > digital
> >> > cooperation (immaterial abundance), is more politically fruitful. (in
> >> > addition, I'm convinced that we need that collective intelligence to
> >> > adapt
> >> > to coming emergencies in the first place)
> >> >
> >> > I could be wrong, but I think this is the most important point and the
> >> > key
> >> > difference,
> >> >
> >> > Michel
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Brian Davey <
> briadavey at googlemail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm not quite sure where to find your blog on the p2p site!
> >> >>
> >> >> I was at the steady state conference where the presentation by Tim
> >> >> Jackson was shown. It was part of a much larger day with a huge
> amount
> >> >> of material being discussed. I've also met and discussed some of the
> >> >> issues with him personally. So I have much sympathy with what he says
> >> >> - although I tend to feel that steady state economy theorists give an
> >> >> impression that we have choices about managing a steady state economy
> >> >> when maybe we have already overshoot the earth's carrying capacity so
> >> >> that the task first is to manage a rocky process of transformation
> >> >> which will, at first, include at least some economic contraction, at
> >> >> least in the so called "developed economies".
> >> >>
> >> >> For all that his description of an engine of growth partly based on
> >> >> the production of novel consumer goods, that we do not really need,
> to
> >> >> impress people that we do not really care about and who don't really
> >> >> care about us...is well made.
> >> >>
> >> >> Some of us have recently had a discussion about "immaterial
> abundance"
> >> >> - but the problem is that when what impresses people is what we have
> >> >> (rather than what we are and what we do) then it is necessary that
> >> >> people can see our flashy motor car, our fashionable clothes, our big
> >> >> house, our jewellry - it is neccessary to social psychological reward
> >> >> structures that goods take a material form and the symbolic value
> >> >> (look at me, look at me...the narcissism observable in the "How to
> >> >> Spend it" supplements  of the Financial Times) have to be embedded in
> >> >> products that involve a throughput of energy and materials.
> >> >>
> >> >> It is in that context that I'm very uneasy about a narrative that
> >> >> appears to promise abundance - rather than a narrative based on a
> >> >> better balance - eg based on downshifting with less money income and
> >> >> material goods but more time spent on satisfying activities with
> >> >> others, more time with and for otherrs, and simply more time to
> unwind
> >> >> from the stress of an otherwise unabalanced lifestyle....and at the
> >> >> same time giving the planet a break by calling on it less for needs
> >> >> which are really about showing off....
> >> >>
> >> >> Finally, to return to the conference for which this video of Tim
> >> >> Jackson was made, and at which it was shown...during the last few
> >> >> months the organisers of the conference have been working very hard
> to
> >> >> produce a comprehensive conference report of very many threads of
> >> >> thinking.
> >> >>
> >> >> It can be downloaded here
> >> >>
> >> >> http://steadystate.org/enough-is-enough/
> >> >>
> >> >> As I attended this conference I recommend reading it and seeing if we
> >> >> can start to draw the narratives of the commons movement and those of
> >> >> p2p more into alignment or at least into a complementary form with
> >> >> these steady state ways of thinking so that we can work together to
> >> >> create the collective changes in ways of thinking that are currently
> >> >> so desperately needed.
> >> >>
> >> >> Brian Davey
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > Dear Paul and friends,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > see http://vimeo.com/15970791
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I wonder if you could have a look at this video, pen some comments,
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > post
> >> >> > it to our blog?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > the context is a steady state economics conference and the speaker
> >> >> > talks
> >> >> > about the system dynamics of the growth economy,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >> >
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Think tank:
> >> >> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >
> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >
> >> > Think tank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> > Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
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