[p2p-research] john pilger on the greeks

[Michel Bauwens]

interesting question, Ryan, and perhaps someone has figures/stats,

here's what I think I know, based on the figures that I have seen over the
years, but can't back up right now

there are two issues though, one is absolute or relative decline ... my
impression is that 1) africa has declined greatly on a number of fronts ; 2)
latin america has stagnated largely (only the last few years have brought
intensive growth in brazil and venezuela, both largely thanks to clever
redistributive policies, we can argue about who was the cleverest, probably
brazil though)  3) europe and the U.S. grew, but at a much slower pace than
in the preceding keynesian period; also, social progress in all western
countries has stalled (i.e. social determinism has become much stronger,
education etc.. is  no longer working for bringing low income people up the
scale)

the second issue is relative inequality, i.e. one group grows, but slower
than other groups (say the farmers in thailand, who have seen their relative
share decline due to inequality increases); there the score is actually
quite bad for the last 30 years, inequality has increased both across and
within countries; this is also a recipe for instability

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, I agree with Michel, progress for whom and at what price?
>
> Can anyone structure an argument that any group in the world is materially
> worse off than they were 30 years ago?  Any group?  Simply adding the
> Internet alone makes such claims implausible in my opinion.
>
> Global life spans are up.  Deaths from wars are down.  Deaths from disease
> are down.  Deaths from strokes, cancer and heart disease come later and less
> frequently than ever before in virtually all societies.
>
> It is hard to find a statistic globally or locally where things have
> dramatically declined for humans in the last 30 years.  Truthfully, that is
> even so for the environment where the 1970s were probably the global nadir
> for environmental evils climate change notwithstanding.
>
> I believe climate change is a problem...a crisis of great proportions, but
> I also believe it can be overcome.  I further believe that the issues of
> capitalism are not from its failures but from its successes.  Automation is
> making labour increasingly irrelevant.  That is the issue...along with
> climate change.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 2:42 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> isn't progress always relative, certainly Ryan could point to a remarkable
>> series of improvements, while J. martin would point to parallel increases in
>> misery in the last 30 years, they can easily co-exist ..
>>
>> so isn't a better question, progress for who? and at what price?
>>
>
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