[p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist terminology

Sat May 1 07:29:40 CEST 2010

Hi Daniel,

As far as I remember, Paul Ray distinguishes 3 'fractions' in the cultural
creatives, greens, politicals, and spirituals, but remember these studies
where done before the digitalization processes that we are now familar with.
I'm assuming that this change creating new fractions, let's call them the
digitals, would go even more into peer production, and the evidence of that
would be the web 2.0 creation after capital left the digital economy after
the 2000 crash.

Adam, who is a critic of florida, mentioned a study in Malmo, where 52% of
the population were purportedly involved in  'peer production'. I'm assuming
that they mean in general, voluntary, passionate engagement outside of the
state and the private sector, which is of course much broader than our
definition here, but still, it is indicative.

Looking at your creative class, but don't forget the huge number of
precarious workers in that sector, are both at the front end of capitalism
and peer producers in their excess time. What is remarkable is that it works
both as excess, and as lack (precarious workers have more time).

But in any case, I think you're missing the picture of how material
production is now being changed by shared designs and more distributed
machinery. Again, yes, early stage, emergent, at the margins, but this is
where it always has to start. So the question is: is open hardware and
distributed manufacturing models, a flash in the pan, or indicative of a
broad change in production. I agree, it is a bold hypothesis, like that of
Marx and Engels, to use a reference you don't like, when they saw capitalism
as the future even though there were still but a few thousand workers in a
sea of farmers ... It was just as marginal, BUT, it was the leading edge of
a wave ...

I think you/we actually agree, it's a matter of emphasis and 'where we are
now' and choosing were to  look. Again I believe at least China's success is
linked with a shared (but illegal) design model, i.e. the shanzai
manufacturers (more than 50% of mobile phones  sold).

How long it will all take is anybody's guess. I remember reading the 15th
Reformation ( a 'transvaluation' much in common with the current p2p
process), took four generations to become dominant, that is about 100 years,
but the whole transition from feudalism to capitalism took probably 300
years roughly?

However, the point is: we do NOT have the time, and current networked
technologies greatly accelerate cultural change processes. Look for example
at the extraordinary awakening of poor folk in thailand, and their rejection
of feudalist exclusion ...  the UDD went from a handful to a well organized
mass movement in 3 years time.

In the final analysis, re your last sentence, peer production will only take
over if stigmergic coordination can outcompete capitalist/multinational
knowledge sharing, and yes, it is very very early days for that. It started
working in software, my thesis is that given another 15 years,
hardware/manufacturing will show similar model projects outlining the new
model,

Michel

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Daniel Araya <levelsixmedia at hotmail.com>wrote:

> You offer a coherent account as always Michel. I never dispute your
> reasoning. I'm just wary of the numbers that you're using. The 30% of
> western society that is supposedly made up of 'cultural creatives' is not
> connected to peer production or even particularly familiar with
> shareholding. In fact, I would say that these so-called 'creatives'
> (assuming they exist) are more closely aligned with Florida's idea of white
> collar innovators. In other words, they are largely an educated elite
> (software producers, film makers, games designers, artists, legal
> professionals, academics, designers, engineers, etc). Most of these
> professionals are in reality the front end of advanced capitalism and absorb
> the lion share of its wealth.
>
> Peer production has been incredibly successful in many areas linked to
> digitalization (FOSS, etc) and that offers real hope that it can be extended
> to other domains. But it remains highly speculative to say that this is what
> is coming. In 50 years China inc could be running the global economy through
> never-ending cycles of 5 year plans.
>
> Can stigmergic innovation replace corporations and property-based
> capitalism? I would say yes possibly: If the innovation cycle is faster and
> of higher quality. In the meantime I see corporations developing platforms
> for collaborative innovation as the next wave of capitalism. P2P may
> ultimately replace this crowdsourcing/user-innovation but I would still
> argue that none of this will happen without a cultural project focused on
> transmitting skills and ideas. In other words, education...
>
> D
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 11:07:12 +0700
>
> From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
> To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist
> terminology
>
> Hi Daniel,,
>
> I do not think cognitive capitalism is an illusion, is it the stage we're
> in, but it does faces important structural constraints because pure IP
> strategies are doomed in the medium term; this is why the new breed of
> netarchical capitalists are doing well without it and they are bound to be a
> new format for cognitive capitalism;
>
> What are your ideas about time frame, mine are 40-50 years to achieve
> parity (18th cy scenario); note than an increasing number of
> capital-sympathetic people, like Ryan on our list, also use the same time
> frame for the death of capitalism, though they are not clear I think about
> what may replace it.  Anyway, not sure 40-50 years to achieve parity, not
> dominance, is 'just around the corner'.
>
> Also, nowhere in my writings will you find any description of a classless
> society. I personally see that, if at all possible, as lightyears away;
> instead what I talk about is a class reconfiguration around commons and peer
> producers, as the core of the value creation process, but surrounded by a
> pluralist economy for material production.
>
> I agree that humanity as a whole is not mature enough for communal
> shareholding, but active minorities are and 'cultural creatives', up to 30%
> of the western population see it as an ideal, and 2% (susan cook greuter's
> figures) are substantially p2p enabled.
>
> The Renaissance was produced by 2,000 people I once read, so it is  by no
> means necessary for the whole world to be culturally mature, to see
> significant shifts in the operating logic of a economy and civilization.
> Even capitalism in its current form, according to Paul Ray's latest figures,
> is only upheld by 17% of the population, yet it is the driving logic and
> seat of power.
>
> So, if 2% of the population take up p2p practices to a significant degree,
> and connect with the 30% that strive for it to work, they can upgrade the
> constitution of the whole fabric of society
>
> Well, I agree with the critique of humanism, but on the other hand, I don't
> see the point of anti-humanism, so rather what is needed is to extend
> human-love to other beings and the planet, and not to revert to
> human-hating,
>
> Michel
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:53 PM, Daniel Araya <levelsixmedia at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> I do. I think that the introduction of networks is reconfiguring the world
> entirely. Its speeding globalization and restructuring global power. I
> disagree however, that cognitive capitalism/cultural economy is a fetish or
> illusion. I think it is a new stage in capitalism that will require
> significant changes in education. But I would agree that the P2P vision you
> have is likely beyond the 'knowledge economy'. My only doubt is the time
> frame. I don't think its around the corner as you do. I think capitalism
> with adapt to the ecological crisis in front of us through innovation. The
> major reason I say this is simply that I don't believe humanity as a whole
> is anywhere near being culturally mature enough for communal shareholding.
>
> So I guess I would agree with the Marxist view of economic stages, but
> disagree that the final stage is communism. Unless by communism you mean
> stigmergic innovation (but it in that case I would jettison the baggage of
> the term).
>
> I am a techno-utopian, thats true. But I've never believed in the notion of
> 'humanism'. I find it a silly self-worshiping religion.
>
> D
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:11:55 +0700
>
> From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
> To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist
> terminology
>
> I agree with what you say here, though knowing you, I think you are a great
> romantic yourself <g>
>
> but yes, cultures and systems need to mature during a sizeable time, and
> political phase transitions come after, their level of violence a function
> of the failure of the older system to change through other means. If you
> look at the political revolutions at the end of feudalism, they took quite
> different features in different countries. I still need to read "The first
> european revolution" which says the final shift to a consolidated feudalism
> occured in a pan-european way in about 975.
>
> Do you agree with me that a deep transvaluation is taking place now,
> similar to what occured at the end of the roman empire and feudalism,
> setting the stage for a system that will have quite different premises?
>
> As you may know, my own notion of mutual reconfiguration of social classes
> is quite different from the marxist premise as well,
>
> Michel
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Daniel Araya <levelsixmedia at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> It may be true Michel that Ryan and I have a similar 'cultural disposition'
> that we're both unconscious of. I concede that. There is a great deal of
> Marx's thinking that I admire. But my own subjective reasoning for my
> distaste for Marxism overall is simply that I'm not attracted to
> romanticism, whether economic (Marx), cultural (Nietzsche) or political
> (Rousseau). There is a kind of narcissism at the base of it that honestly
> repels me. I share your intuition that we will likely see a post-capitalist
> system shift at some point. And I might even concede that Marx had some
> unique vision of this shift that still gives us insight today. But I
> disagree that any economic shift in history comes about through class war,
> coercion or any other "cheap" alternative to cultural evolution. In my
> opinion, new economic systems emerge organically as cultures mature. If Marx
> had been authentic to his desire for an evolutionary model of economic
> change, I think he would have concluded this himself.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:39:28 +0700
> From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>
> To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist
> terminology
>
>   I understand ... I know Daniel quite well for having had him over a few
> times and staying at his place,
>
> you and him share a very broadly similar worldview, which I would call
> social liberal ... and you're both northamerican
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:33 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> Michel,
>
> I must say I sympathize deeply with the tone Daniel is using.
>
> Ryan
>
>   On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Hi Tere,
>
> this is from a little dialogue on facebook,
>
> perhaps you want to say something about your future vision and your choice
> of terminology?
>
> couldn't find the beginning of the discussion, but you'll get the drift
>
> Michel
>
>
>  *Daniel Araya* <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>* *April 28 at 11:45pm
>  Michel. New models are always appreciated even if they borrow from
> 'communism'. But a direct application-- its silly.
>
> Why do you continue to deny the wealth generated by capitalism and wax
> poetic about an abstract communism that exists no where. Have you read Don
> Quixote?
>    <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
>  *Michel Bauwens* <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>* *April 29 at 12:07am
>
>  Daniel: I gather neither you nor me actually read the book, so what are
> we talking about. As for me, I'm only talking about the real observable,
> already existing thing: the peer to peer dynamics online, and the commons of
> the physical world, not of which are abstract. So I'm wondering what you are
> referring to?
>    <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>
>  *Daniel Araya* <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>* *April 29 at 12:12am
>  I'm talking about confusing p2p with communism. One is an emergent form
> (growing out of the real capacities of networks--- collective intelligence).
> The other is a romantic vision for a secular paradise of worker coops. They
> may be parallel but in my mind they're not the same.
>
> Don't be offended. Just reacting to the liberal use of the word 'communism'
> in that wikiworld book.
>    <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
>  *Michel Bauwens* <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>* *April 29 at 9:48am
>  technically, p2p as a social mode is what alan page fiske calls communcal
> chareholding, i.e. exchange with a totality, it is not related to workers
> coop, which is currently just a different market modality, unless there
> would not be work for money exchange in the coop. as far as I can see Tere's
> is asking is how do we get from p2p in the immaterial world, to a system of
> worker coops. If that is your usage of communism (in old marxist terms, this
> is what technically would rather be socialism, i.e. the intermediary stage
> where there is still exchange, i.e. everyone gets rewarded according to
> effort.
>    <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>
>  *Daniel Araya* <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>* *April 29 at 10:07am
>  Michel, you are humorless on this subject. The point is not "my
> interpretation" but the common understanding of a term loaded with
> generations of assumptions. It is not merely an empty signifier but comes
> with over a century of political contestation. Tere clearly uses the term
> communism to highlight Marxism not despite it. So its not some 'new road'
> he's pointing to but a mere restating of a well-worn gospel. Build a working
> an example of this utopia and I'm sure people will begin to take it
> seriously again. Until then...
>    <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=528245547>
>  *Michel Bauwens* <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=528245547>* *April
> 29 at 10:32am
>  that is why I personally not use this terminology, because indeed it is
> so loaded, and certainly in the U.S., can only lead to misinterpretation
>
>
> --
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