[p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist terminology

Sat May 1 06:56:06 CEST 2010

You offer a coherent account as always Michel. I never dispute your reasoning. I'm just wary of the numbers that you're using. The 30% of western society that is supposedly made up of 'cultural creatives' is not connected to peer production or even particularly familiar with shareholding. In fact, I would say that these so-called 'creatives' (assuming they exist) are more closely aligned with Florida's idea of white collar innovators. In other words, they are largely an educated elite (software producers, film makers, games designers, artists, legal professionals, academics, designers, engineers, etc). Most of these professionals are in reality the front end of advanced capitalism and absorb the lion share of its wealth. 

Peer production has been incredibly successful in many areas linked to digitalization (FOSS, etc) and that offers real hope that it can be extended to other domains. But it remains highly speculative to say that this is what is coming. In 50 years China inc could be running the global economy through never-ending cycles of 5 year plans.

Can stigmergic innovation replace corporations and property-based capitalism? I would say yes possibly: If the innovation cycle is faster and of higher quality. In the meantime I see corporations developing platforms for collaborative innovation as the next wave of capitalism. P2P may ultimately replace this crowdsourcing/user-innovation but I would still argue that none of this will happen without a cultural project focused on transmitting skills and ideas. In other words, education... 

D

Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 11:07:12 +0700
From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist	terminology

Hi Daniel,,

I do not think cognitive capitalism is an illusion, is it the stage we're in, but it does faces important structural constraints because pure IP strategies are doomed in the medium term; this is why the new breed of netarchical capitalists are doing well without it and they are bound to be a new format for cognitive capitalism;

What are your ideas about time frame, mine are 40-50 years to achieve parity (18th cy scenario); note than an increasing number of capital-sympathetic people, like Ryan on our list, also use the same time frame for the death of capitalism, though they are not clear I think about what may replace it.  Anyway, not sure 40-50 years to achieve parity, not dominance, is 'just around the corner'.

Also, nowhere in my writings will you find any description of a classless society. I personally see that, if at all possible, as lightyears away; instead what I talk about is a class reconfiguration around commons and peer producers, as the core of the value creation process, but surrounded by a pluralist economy for material production.

I agree that humanity as a whole is not mature enough for communal shareholding, but active minorities are and 'cultural creatives', up to 30% of the western population see it as an ideal, and 2% (susan cook greuter's figures) are substantially p2p enabled.

The Renaissance was produced by 2,000 people I once read, so it is  by no means necessary for the whole world to be culturally mature, to see significant shifts in the operating logic of a economy and civilization. Even capitalism in its current form, according to Paul Ray's latest figures, is only upheld by 17% of the population, yet it is the driving logic and seat of power.

So, if 2% of the population take up p2p practices to a significant degree, and connect with the 30% that strive for it to work, they can upgrade the constitution of the whole fabric of society

Well, I agree with the critique of humanism, but on the other hand, I don't see the point of anti-humanism, so rather what is needed is to extend human-love to other beings and the planet, and not to revert to human-hating,

Michel

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:53 PM, Daniel Araya <levelsixmedia at hotmail.com> wrote:

I do. I think that the introduction of networks is reconfiguring the world entirely. Its speeding globalization and restructuring global power. I disagree however, that cognitive capitalism/cultural economy is a fetish or illusion. I think it is a new stage in capitalism that will require significant changes in education. But I would agree that the P2P vision you have is likely beyond the 'knowledge economy'. My only doubt is the time frame. I don't think its around the corner as you do. I think capitalism with adapt to the ecological crisis in front of us through innovation. The major reason I say this is simply that I don't believe humanity as a whole is anywhere near being culturally mature enough for communal shareholding. 

So I guess I would agree with the Marxist view of economic stages, but disagree that the final stage is communism. Unless by communism you mean stigmergic innovation (but it in that case I would jettison the baggage of the term). 

I am a techno-utopian, thats true. But I've never believed in the notion of 'humanism'. I find it a silly self-worshiping religion. 

D

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:11:55 +0700 

From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist terminology

I agree with what you say here, though knowing you, I think you are a great romantic yourself <g>

but yes, cultures and systems need to mature during a sizeable time, and political phase transitions come after, their level of violence a function of the failure of the older system to change through other means. If you look at the political revolutions at the end of feudalism, they took quite different features in different countries. I still need to read "The first european revolution" which says the final shift to a consolidated feudalism occured in a pan-european way in about 975.

Do you agree with me that a deep transvaluation is taking place now, similar to what occured at the end of the roman empire and feudalism, setting the stage for a system that will have quite different premises?

As you may know, my own notion of mutual reconfiguration of social classes is quite different from the marxist premise as well,

Michel

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Daniel Araya <levelsixmedia at hotmail.com> wrote:

It may be true Michel that Ryan and I have a similar 'cultural disposition' that we're both unconscious of. I concede that. There is a great deal of Marx's thinking that I admire. But my own subjective reasoning for my distaste for Marxism overall is simply that I'm not attracted to romanticism, whether economic (Marx), cultural (Nietzsche) or political (Rousseau). There is a kind of narcissism at the base of it that honestly repels me. I share your intuition that we will likely see a post-capitalist system shift at some point. And I might even concede that Marx had some unique vision of this shift that still gives us insight today. But I disagree that any economic shift in history comes about through class war, coercion or any other "cheap" alternative to cultural evolution. In my opinion, new economic systems emerge organically as cultures mature. If Marx had been authentic to his desire for an evolutionary model of economic change, I think he would have concluded this himself. 

Daniel

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:39:28 +0700
From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com 

To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist terminology

I understand ... I know Daniel quite well for having had him over a few times and staying at his place,

you and him share a very broadly similar worldview, which I would call social liberal ... and you're both northamerican

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:33 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

Michel, 

I must say I sympathize deeply with the tone Daniel is using.

Ryan

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Tere,

this is from a little dialogue on facebook,

perhaps you want to say something about your future vision and your choice of terminology?

couldn't find the beginning of the discussion, but you'll get the drift

Michel

Daniel Araya April 28 at 11:45pm 

Michel. New models are always appreciated even if they borrow from 'communism'. But a direct application-- its silly. 

Why do you continue to deny the wealth generated by capitalism and wax poetic about an abstract communism that exists no where. Have you read Don Quixote? 

Michel Bauwens April 29 at 12:07am 

Daniel: I gather neither you nor me actually read the book, so what are we talking about. As for me, I'm only talking about the real observable, already existing thing: the peer to peer dynamics online, and the commons of the physical world, not of which are abstract. So I'm wondering what you are referring to? 

Daniel Araya April 29 at 12:12am 

I'm talking about confusing p2p with communism. One is an emergent form (growing out of the real capacities of networks--- collective intelligence). The other is a romantic vision for a secular paradise of worker coops. They may be parallel but in my mind they're not the same.

Don't be offended. Just reacting to the liberal use of the word 'communism' in that wikiworld book. 

Michel Bauwens April 29 at 9:48am 

technically, p2p as a social mode is what alan page fiske calls communcal chareholding, i.e. exchange with a totality, it is not related to workers coop, which is currently just a different market modality, unless there would not be work for money exchange in the coop. as far as I can see Tere's is asking is how do we get from p2p in the immaterial world, to a system of worker coops. If that is your usage of communism (in old marxist terms, this is what technically would rather be socialism, i.e. the intermediary stage where there is still exchange, i.e. everyone gets rewarded according to effort. 

Daniel Araya April 29 at 10:07am 

Michel, you are humorless on this subject. The point is not "my interpretation" but the common understanding of a term loaded with generations of assumptions. It is not merely an empty signifier but comes with over a century of political contestation. Tere clearly uses the term communism to highlight Marxism not despite it. So its not some 'new road' he's pointing to but a mere restating of a well-worn gospel. Build a working an example of this utopia and I'm sure people will begin to take it seriously again. Until then... 

Michel Bauwens April 29 at 10:32am 

that is why I personally not use this terminology, because indeed it is so loaded, and certainly in the U.S., can only lead to misinterpretation 
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