[p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist terminology

Michel Bauwens michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Sat May 1 06:07:12 CEST 2010


Hi Daniel,,

I do not think cognitive capitalism is an illusion, is it the stage we're
in, but it does faces important structural constraints because pure IP
strategies are doomed in the medium term; this is why the new breed of
netarchical capitalists are doing well without it and they are bound to be a
new format for cognitive capitalism;

What are your ideas about time frame, mine are 40-50 years to achieve parity
(18th cy scenario); note than an increasing number of capital-sympathetic
people, like Ryan on our list, also use the same time frame for the death of
capitalism, though they are not clear I think about what may replace it.
Anyway, not sure 40-50 years to achieve parity, not dominance, is 'just
around the corner'.

Also, nowhere in my writings will you find any description of a classless
society. I personally see that, if at all possible, as lightyears away;
instead what I talk about is a class reconfiguration around commons and peer
producers, as the core of the value creation process, but surrounded by a
pluralist economy for material production.

I agree that humanity as a whole is not mature enough for communal
shareholding, but active minorities are and 'cultural creatives', up to 30%
of the western population see it as an ideal, and 2% (susan cook greuter's
figures) are substantially p2p enabled.

The Renaissance was produced by 2,000 people I once read, so it is  by no
means necessary for the whole world to be culturally mature, to see
significant shifts in the operating logic of a economy and civilization.
Even capitalism in its current form, according to Paul Ray's latest figures,
is only upheld by 17% of the population, yet it is the driving logic and
seat of power.

So, if 2% of the population take up p2p practices to a significant degree,
and connect with the 30% that strive for it to work, they can upgrade the
constitution of the whole fabric of society

Well, I agree with the critique of humanism, but on the other hand, I don't
see the point of anti-humanism, so rather what is needed is to extend
human-love to other beings and the planet, and not to revert to
human-hating,

Michel

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:53 PM, Daniel Araya <levelsixmedia at hotmail.com>wrote:

> I do. I think that the introduction of networks is reconfiguring the world
> entirely. Its speeding globalization and restructuring global power. I
> disagree however, that cognitive capitalism/cultural economy is a fetish or
> illusion. I think it is a new stage in capitalism that will require
> significant changes in education. But I would agree that the P2P vision you
> have is likely beyond the 'knowledge economy'. My only doubt is the time
> frame. I don't think its around the corner as you do. I think capitalism
> with adapt to the ecological crisis in front of us through innovation. The
> major reason I say this is simply that I don't believe humanity as a whole
> is anywhere near being culturally mature enough for communal shareholding.
>
> So I guess I would agree with the Marxist view of economic stages, but
> disagree that the final stage is communism. Unless by communism you mean
> stigmergic innovation (but it in that case I would jettison the baggage of
> the term).
>
> I am a techno-utopian, thats true. But I've never believed in the notion of
> 'humanism'. I find it a silly self-worshiping religion.
>
> D
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:11:55 +0700
>
> From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
> To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist
> terminology
>
> I agree with what you say here, though knowing you, I think you are a great
> romantic yourself <g>
>
> but yes, cultures and systems need to mature during a sizeable time, and
> political phase transitions come after, their level of violence a function
> of the failure of the older system to change through other means. If you
> look at the political revolutions at the end of feudalism, they took quite
> different features in different countries. I still need to read "The first
> european revolution" which says the final shift to a consolidated feudalism
> occured in a pan-european way in about 975.
>
> Do you agree with me that a deep transvaluation is taking place now,
> similar to what occured at the end of the roman empire and feudalism,
> setting the stage for a system that will have quite different premises?
>
> As you may know, my own notion of mutual reconfiguration of social classes
> is quite different from the marxist premise as well,
>
> Michel
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Daniel Araya <levelsixmedia at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> It may be true Michel that Ryan and I have a similar 'cultural disposition'
> that we're both unconscious of. I concede that. There is a great deal of
> Marx's thinking that I admire. But my own subjective reasoning for my
> distaste for Marxism overall is simply that I'm not attracted to
> romanticism, whether economic (Marx), cultural (Nietzsche) or political
> (Rousseau). There is a kind of narcissism at the base of it that honestly
> repels me. I share your intuition that we will likely see a post-capitalist
> system shift at some point. And I might even concede that Marx had some
> unique vision of this shift that still gives us insight today. But I
> disagree that any economic shift in history comes about through class war,
> coercion or any other "cheap" alternative to cultural evolution. In my
> opinion, new economic systems emerge organically as cultures mature. If Marx
> had been authentic to his desire for an evolutionary model of economic
> change, I think he would have concluded this himself.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:39:28 +0700
> From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>
> To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist
> terminology
>
>   I understand ... I know Daniel quite well for having had him over a few
> times and staying at his place,
>
> you and him share a very broadly similar worldview, which I would call
> social liberal ... and you're both northamerican
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:33 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> Michel,
>
> I must say I sympathize deeply with the tone Daniel is using.
>
> Ryan
>
>   On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Hi Tere,
>
> this is from a little dialogue on facebook,
>
> perhaps you want to say something about your future vision and your choice
> of terminology?
>
> couldn't find the beginning of the discussion, but you'll get the drift
>
> Michel
>
>
>  *Daniel Araya* <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>* *April 28 at 11:45pm
>  Michel. New models are always appreciated even if they borrow from
> 'communism'. But a direct application-- its silly.
>
> Why do you continue to deny the wealth generated by capitalism and wax
> poetic about an abstract communism that exists no where. Have you read Don
> Quixote?
>    <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
>  *Michel Bauwens* <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>* *April 29 at 12:07am
>
>  Daniel: I gather neither you nor me actually read the book, so what are
> we talking about. As for me, I'm only talking about the real observable,
> already existing thing: the peer to peer dynamics online, and the commons of
> the physical world, not of which are abstract. So I'm wondering what you are
> referring to?
>    <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>
>  *Daniel Araya* <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>* *April 29 at 12:12am
>  I'm talking about confusing p2p with communism. One is an emergent form
> (growing out of the real capacities of networks--- collective intelligence).
> The other is a romantic vision for a secular paradise of worker coops. They
> may be parallel but in my mind they're not the same.
>
> Don't be offended. Just reacting to the liberal use of the word 'communism'
> in that wikiworld book.
>    <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
>  *Michel Bauwens* <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>* *April 29 at 9:48am
>  technically, p2p as a social mode is what alan page fiske calls communcal
> chareholding, i.e. exchange with a totality, it is not related to workers
> coop, which is currently just a different market modality, unless there
> would not be work for money exchange in the coop. as far as I can see Tere's
> is asking is how do we get from p2p in the immaterial world, to a system of
> worker coops. If that is your usage of communism (in old marxist terms, this
> is what technically would rather be socialism, i.e. the intermediary stage
> where there is still exchange, i.e. everyone gets rewarded according to
> effort.
>    <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>
>  *Daniel Araya* <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>* *April 29 at 10:07am
>  Michel, you are humorless on this subject. The point is not "my
> interpretation" but the common understanding of a term loaded with
> generations of assumptions. It is not merely an empty signifier but comes
> with over a century of political contestation. Tere clearly uses the term
> communism to highlight Marxism not despite it. So its not some 'new road'
> he's pointing to but a mere restating of a well-worn gospel. Build a working
> an example of this utopia and I'm sure people will begin to take it
> seriously again. Until then...
>    <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=528245547>
>  *Michel Bauwens* <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=528245547>* *April
> 29 at 10:32am
>  that is why I personally not use this terminology, because indeed it is
> so loaded, and certainly in the U.S., can only lead to misinterpretation
>
>
> --
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