[p2p-research] land multipliers

Thu Jun 17 19:36:51 CEST 2010

Thanks, Rick.

I don't think that it is conclusive that London could not support
itself within it's own geographical space with agriculture. Depends on
how it would be done, I think.

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Richard Adler <richardcadler at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would balance that use of that force multiplier with another factor: the
> smaller carbon footprint from living in an urban environment, especially by
> comparison with suburban environments.
>
> It may be true that London could not support itself from high intensity
> agriculture within its own geographic space, but it's also true that were
> you to spread the current population of London over a wider geographic area,
> the environmental impact would be more pronounced in other respects.
>
> So, like Paul and Sam, I find the force multiplier a useful tool, but only
> if used in context with other factors.
>
> Rick
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Paul B. Hartzog <paulbhartzog at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to add what I thought about when reading that remark also,
>>
>> multipliers are dangerous because of the assumptions that go into them
>> "4" presupposes some set of farming processes on the land in question.
>> What processes? hydroponics?
>>
>> In addition processes and multipliers will vary based on geography,
>> so for example,
>> solar or wind inputs could increase multiplier values in areas where those
>> resources are plentiful.
>>
>> finally,
>> the concept of a multiplier is used to justify investment costs
>> (see the wikipedia page for details)
>> so if getting "4" times the productivity requires "10" times the
>> investment
>> then it isn't much of a win.
>>
>> Technically, a multiplier should take into account the costs,
>> but then you have sandwiched the costs into the multiplier
>> which means
>>    1. you have fixed them to a particular set of current values
>>    2. you have obscured them
>>
>> It's better, imo, to keep the costs and benefits disaggregated
>> so as to be able to interrogate the assumptions built into those values.
>>
>> So, multipliers can be GREAT for talking quickly to people who want an
>> overview
>> or a metaphor
>> but they break down when you dig into them.
>>
>> my 2 cents
>>
>> -p
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Michel Bauwens
>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Comments on this remark most appreciated:
>> >>
>> >> http://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/other/infrastructure-is-a-land-multiplier-1771
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> For example, at five people per acre, about the maximum possible
>> >> sustinable
>> >> density for high intensity organic agriculture, Greater London can
>> >> support
>> >> about 1/4 of its current population. Therefore the “land multiplier”
>> >> for
>> >> Greater London is 4. (or possibly more if you count the skills of high
>> >> intensity agriculture as infrastructure)
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I agree that the way cities are managed with regards to food and
>> > energy cannot be sustained. Vinay is right that food production in
>> > general is going to need to increase, possibly exponentially
>> >
>> > A few thoughts from my own experiences with urban agriculture
>> >
>> > 1. 1 acre of arable land could certainly support more than five
>> > people's food needs annually, if it were effectively managed.
>> >
>> > 2. The tops and interiors of structures contain a huge amount of
>> > unused space in cities.
>> >
>> > 3. I have witnessed the incredible power of soil production firsthand
>> > in urban settings (via both composting and vermiculture). The current
>> > food waste in a typical city could easily be converted to enough soil
>> > to support the food needs for a large number of people
>> >
>> > My point is that a large city like London, NYC, Mexico City *could*
>> > supply it's own food needs now with existing resources, solar and wind
>> > energy (likely with surplus). It would take a concerted effort (likely
>> > at least some degree of participation by a majority of people in the
>> > city, until it becomes clear as to what can be automated)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> --
>> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> >>
>> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>> >>
>> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> >>
>> >> Think tank:
>> >> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > --
>> > Sam Rose
>> > Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> > skype: samuelrose
>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> > http://forwardfound.org
>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>> > http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> > http://localfoodsystems.org
>> > http://notanemployee.net
>> > http://communitywiki.org
>> > http://p2pfoundation.net
>> >
>> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> > ambition." - Carl Sagan
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> The Forward Foundation
>> http://www.ForwardFound.org
>> paul.b.hartzog at forwardfound.org
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> http://www.PaulBHartzog.org
>> PaulBHartzog at PaulBHartzog.org
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> http://www.panarchy.com
>> PaulBHartzog at panarchy.com
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> University of Michigan
>> PHartzog at umich.edu
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.
>>                 --Muriel Rukeyser
>>
>> Perceive differently, then you will act differently.
>>                 --Paul B. Hartzog
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>
>

-- 
-- 
Sam Rose
Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://forwardfound.org
http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
http://socialmediaclassroom.com
http://localfoodsystems.org
http://notanemployee.net
http://communitywiki.org
http://p2pfoundation.net

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan