[p2p-research] Role of civil society

Thu Jun 3 05:36:52 CEST 2010

I agree, diversity of forms is a guarantee that all forms work better ..

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I generally agree that corporate actors will be bad if left to their own
> devices.  But so will government and non-profit actors (e.g. the Church).
> Anyone not "regulated" is likely to be rogue including governments.  I don't
> trust anyone because they say, "Hey, I'm a good guy, not in it for the
> money, so trust me!"  Any clever demon always looks like an angel.
>
> That said, civil society allows us to build social meshes that do provide
> checks and balances.  But it isn't a regulate everything world that works
> with civil society.  Is a concept of responsibility implicit in peer
> relationships.
>
> I have worked in non-profit, universities, for profit and government.  I
> really see very little ethical difference between any of these.  Top people
> are typically ambitious and have conflicting motivations.  Junior people are
> generally trod upon, quick to slack off, and lacking in long-term
> commitment.
>
> All forms justify their roles and resource uses as the most ethical given
> their point of view.  And I personally believe there is a big place for all
> in most societies.  Governments must exist to mandate big changes--though
> they often fail to do this in time or appropriately.  For profit must exist
> to drive motivation and innovation.  And non-profits must exist as an outlet
> for those unable or unwilling to participate in existing schemes that can
> generate monetary value.  Even still, non-profits are a market of sorts in
> that they draw philanthropy.  I suppose what I have saying is that a garden
> with lots of plant types is better than a garden with a few...even if the
> few are my favorate types.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> it is true that there is some measure of change, like CSR, but having
>> worked 30 years in corporations, I can tell you that this has never been
>> through inner motivation, but through external pressure and regulatory
>> demands. the logic of capitalism was most often, in the context of a weak
>> civil society, that corporations trying to do 'good', would be more
>> expensive and go out of business ... it is only quite recent that increased
>> transparency makes this kind of behavviour counterproductive in the long
>> term .. on the other hand, in many other ways, due to shareholder
>> capitalism, conditions within corporations have severely deteriorated, with
>> a focus on short term profit .. I'm afraid division and conflict are part of
>> life, you can have a dialogue, but when you are in a position of structural
>> weakness ... due you think American blacks would have gotten freedom and
>> civil rights, without struggle. Why are corporatoins who have CSR in the
>> west, dumping more oil in the Niger delta than in the Gulf, without
>> compensation, and killing the protesters? There is only one reason: civil
>> society in Africa is weak .. When you have to make social changes, politics
>> enters the fray, though not necessarily parliamemtary  politics ..
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Very few corporations would say their sole purpose is profit.  Most would
>>> say that socially responsible profit is their driver.  Now we all no the
>>> outcomes have been suboptimal, but there are reasons for hope.  CSR is now a
>>> huge field.  Some of the largest philanthropic organizations in the world
>>> are corporations, banks and funds.  Many operate to build local
>>> communities.  I think we need to criticize bad behavior.  I think we don't
>>> so much need to establish prejudicial judgments on organizational forms or
>>> partial motivations.  Part of what Civil Society meshes offer is a greater
>>> mesh that helps make all of us more responsible...academics, corporations,
>>> citizens, politicians, etc.  It builds rather than creating divisions.  Too
>>> much of our theory is we/they.  That is very 19th century.  Labour versus
>>> capital.  Profit versus non-profit.  Libertarian versus statist.  Anarchist
>>> versus democrat/liberal.  Those battles don't resolve and they don't much
>>> help except for a very crude form of recruiting and fund raising.  We need
>>> to be counter-cultural in advancing civil society which can be a common
>>> meeting place...a shared agenda that is about as a-political as we can be.
>>> Or we must choose division and conflict.  As a sort of corporate/for profit
>>> person, I sense I shall fall outside the realm if we remain judgmental.  I
>>> hope that ultimately isn't the case because I believe in P2P as a mode of
>>> organization and I believe it falls strongly under civil society which I
>>> support completely.
>>>
>>>
>>> R.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 9:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't think p2p excludes profit, but corporations are entities that
>>>> are exclusively dedicated to profit at the expense of everything else; when
>>>> profit is embedded in a commons, it has different effects than when it
>>>> destroys the commons ... so p2p calls for a different type of corporate
>>>> entities ..
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>   On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not very good at analyzing the motives of others.  Everyone
>>>>> (amongst the relatively wealthy) chooses where and how to live and there are
>>>>> trade offs that call for differing income objectives.  What Civil Society
>>>>> offers to me is the sort of organizational possibilities that allow for
>>>>> openness.  I would prefer P2P focus on openness and peerage than whether or
>>>>> not profit is involved.  In other words, I would tend to argue (as you might
>>>>> have guessed) for less/fewer motivational litmus tests and more outcomes.
>>>>>
>>>>> R.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think there can indeed be a broad consensus, but of course, the
>>>>>> devil is in the details, the trick is finding commonalities despite the
>>>>>> differences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But for me, the link is clear and direct, peer to peer is the ability
>>>>>> for civil society to create value without resorting to the state or
>>>>>> corporate form, and its institutional form is the commons. But of course,
>>>>>> you are right as well, that civil society is broader than p2p.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The analysis of coops is less clear to me, as you could see it as
>>>>>> another corporate form as well, but arguably it is a free association of
>>>>>> individuals, and profit is usually not the main motive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michel,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would hope this sort of thing is something left, right,
>>>>>>> progressive/conservative, anarchist, libertarian, state socialist and
>>>>>>> democrat and even republican could agree upon.  Civil Society is the key in
>>>>>>> my view.  I actually sent the Cato Institute statement on the same the other
>>>>>>> day to show just how broad this consensus seems to be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The relationship of P2P to Civil Society, as I have stated in past,
>>>>>>> is not obvious.  Clearly P2P orgs are part of CS, but it also seems to me
>>>>>>> that P2P is a "version" or view of civil society ideals.  Certainly open
>>>>>>> source and commons organizations are mainstream civil society as are co-ops
>>>>>>> by nearly any reasonable definition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ryan
>>>>>>>   On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> interesting report attached
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>>> From: Marilyn Mehlmann <mmehlmann at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 7:05 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Role of civil society
>>>>>>>> To: Anne Marie Boutin <amboutin at apci.asso.fr>, "c.ritchie" <
>>>>>>>> ritchie at fiig.org>, carine at uia.be, bmiche at skynet.be, Tim Casswell <
>>>>>>>> tim at creativeconnection.co.uk>, secgen at uia.be
>>>>>>>> Cc: Rolf Carriere <r_carriere at hotmail.com>, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apologies for sending the message below with a misleading 'subject'
>>>>>>>> line. Here it is again, hopefully easier to trace when needed.
>>>>>>>> Marilyn*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1 June 2010 14:04, Marilyn Mehlmann <mmehlmann at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry I can't be with you for the upcoming Bureau meeting. I wish
>>>>>>>>> you good deliberations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Via Michel Bauwens I just received the attached report on the
>>>>>>>>> present and future role of civil society in the UK. It seems to me that many
>>>>>>>>> of the conclusions could be extrapolated to international civil society.
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps one basis on which to further develop the ideas we have had for
>>>>>>>>> conferences/workshops?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Warm regards
>>>>>>>>> Marilyn*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *************************************************
>>>>>>>> Marilyn Mehlmann, General Secretary
>>>>>>>> Global Action Plan (GAP) International
>>>>>>>> Brovägen 9, 1 tr
>>>>>>>> SE-182 76  Stocksund, Sweden
>>>>>>>> tel  +46-8612 1440
>>>>>>>> secretariat at globalactionplan.com
>>>>>>>> http://www.globalactionplan.com
>>>>>>>> *************************************************
>>>>>>>> I don't care what you know
>>>>>>>> until I know that you care. - Anon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Think tank:
>>>>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think tank:
>>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>>>> P.O. Box 633
>>>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>>>> Cayman Islands
>>>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> Think tank:
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan Lanham
>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>> P.O. Box 633
>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>> Cayman Islands
>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>

-- 
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Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
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