[p2p-research] A cloud backup for the internet, discussion part 1 (test)

Michel Bauwens michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Sat Jul 24 09:07:32 CEST 2010 

hi rafael, have you made any progress since the posting of your articles?

Michel

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rafael Pezzi <rafaelpezzi at ionscattering.org
> wrote:

> Michel,
>
> The Social Cloud [1,2] concept that have been posted in this list and at
> the P2P blog [3] a while a go could act as a backup network. Maybe with some
> difficulty for intercontinental data transmission, but at least could
> provide local communities with a resilient data management and communication
> system, even in case of major disruption of centralized services.
>
> Indeed, it would be possible to cache parts of the web on local storage
> devices and provide the locals with remote content in case of failure, using
> a mesh network, but I believe that keeping alive digital communication
> within local communities can be as, or even more important than having the
> whole Internet content available, but I agree that caching relevant portions
> of the Internet can be a good idea. It would be much simpler with a semantic
> web.
>
> Regards,
> Rafael
>
>
> [1]
> http://www.masternewmedia.org/p2p-and-the-social-cloud-the-emergence-of-peer-economic-systems-part-1/
> [2]
> http://www.masternewmedia.org/p2p-and-the-social-cloud-the-emergence-of-peer-economic-systems-part-2/
> [3] http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/p2p-and-the-social-cloud/2009/11/30
>
>
> Em 23-07-2010 00:43, Michel Bauwens escreveu:
>
>   if this works, I'll continue,
>
> sepp thanks for telling me how this arrives in your mailbox,
>
> otherwise, any advice on how to do a clean copy would be appreciated,
>
> Michel
>
>
>
> from
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/backing-up-the-internet-in-a
>
>
> With optical cables being cut in the Middle East impeding internet traffic
> in some geographical areas and a recent court action resulting in WikiLeaks
> being taken off line, it becomes clear that access to the net may not be as
> assured as we tend to think.
>
> While the basic architecture of the net does protect to some degree against
> these dangers, I believe we might profit from developing a way to "back up
> the internet" so that, even if there are major disruptions, we still have a
> workable means of communication, data storage and exchange of ideas.
>
> My dream is a p2p application that uses some of the free hard disk storage
> space on our personal computers to redundantly back up the net and allow
> work to continue more or less seamlessly in the event of a major
> catastrophe.
>
> Would such a thing be doable? What do you think?
>
> Is anyone already working on this?
>
> Tags:
>
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>  Stop Following<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/backing-up-the-internet-in-a#>–
> Don't email me when people reply
>   Replies to This Discussion [image: Bas Reus]<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/BasReus>
> Permalink <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/xn/detail/2003008:Comment:624>Reply by Bas
> Reus<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=1h5g1ebjscb0e>on February
> 19, 2008 at 6:28pm Send Message<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/message/newFromProfile?screenName=1h5g1ebjscb0e&target=http%3A%2F%2Fp2pfoundation.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fbacking-up-the-internet-in-a>
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> Sepp, I definately agree with you. The Internet should be a decentralized
> network, but clearly this is not quite the case. There a too few connections
> between nodes worldwide.
>
>
> Why should it not be doable? I'm thinking that the current protocol may not
> be sufficient, because the idea of unique urls as the Internet is designed,
> maybe should be abandoned, or accompanied with some metadata.
>
> I'm not an expert in networking, but I was thinking about this problem last
> week as well.
>
> Cheers, Bas
>
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> Permalink <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/xn/detail/2003008:Comment:782>Reply by Sepp
> Hasslberger<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=8wbjqz2kevz8>on February
> 21, 2008 at 7:53pm Send Message<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/message/newFromProfile?screenName=8wbjqz2kevz8&target=http%3A%2F%2Fp2pfoundation.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fbacking-up-the-internet-in-a>
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> Hi Bas,
>
> I see that there are lots of transatlantic fibres from the graphic you
> posted. Much less overland - or perhaps the overland connections do not show
> as much as they weave a finely distributed net.
>
> Now the idea of a backup is not only for the connections but also for the
> content.
>
> Connections are normally pretty good, but the cable cuts in the Middle East
> show that this is not to be taken as always assured. If we had some
> catastrophic occurrence, many of those cables could be disrupted, and as
> eggy says in his post, there could also be a political decision to cut us
> off. So on the connection side, probably a combination of cables backed up
> by satellite or some other long range means of communication, plus mesh
> networks for strengthening the local connectivity would be desirable.
>
> For the data side, I envision distributed storage of a backup of data that
> would be immediately accessible in case of an emergency, where even a
> severely hampered net could still reconstruct much of the data from local
> copies. Actually the internet should be a bit like a hologram with its
> information content distributed in a redundant way on our own computers.
> There is a lot of unutilized disk space in personal computers that could be
> used for storing at least some of that wealth of information.
>
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> Permalink <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/xn/detail/2003008:Comment:661>Reply by
> eggy1943<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=ad1jwqhkrddz>on February
> 20, 2008 at 6:41am Send Message<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/message/newFromProfile?screenName=ad1jwqhkrddz&target=http%3A%2F%2Fp2pfoundation.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fbacking-up-the-internet-in-a>
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> I am no techno so this is just a comment.
> I too have concerns, however perhaps a bit different.
>
> The cables cut would be like the T lines necessary for "our" internet being
> destroyed. That is purely a maintenance project, we can not personally
> replace these lines ourselves. This is a physical problem.
>
> But other dangers exist. With the present self made unitarian executive,
> the internet could be taken away by policy. The next president will have all
> the power the present unitarian comrade does. I fear this more than physical
> sabotages. We must establish our "People Power" of this Nation so the
> government is subservient to the people.
>
> Of course back up your sites on to your personal computer or get an extra
> drive for backups.
>
> Another necessary back up would be to keep alternative methods to contact
> key people, who would store alternate addresses for our groups. In this way
> we could remain in contact by postal mail, fax, telephone, cell phone, pony
> express etc. Presently, to find boohoo or makaface (alias) out in the real
> world would be impossible. Of course this information needs to be
> confidential, however the owners of a site already have this information, on
> site. If the owner has this information on their home computer as a back up
> for instance, (secured) they could conceivably contact everyone by
> alternative method. If these key people were connected by alternative
> communication we could restore our "network" even if the net were broken,
> stolen, or taken from us.
>
> You can trust the government, just ask any Indian. History reveals that
> many governments over rule of the people. Indeed our US Constitution
> provides for the people to eliminate the government and make new because
> this danger was forseen. So please do not except the delusion presented by
> the powers that be that we are secure. We make our own security, lock our
> own doors.
>
> So let us begin to network, without the net.
>
> Peace and security
> Bruce Eggum
> WI USA
>
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> Permalink <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/xn/detail/2003008:Comment:704>Reply by Michel
> Bauwens<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=mbauwens>on February
> 20, 2008 at 12:21pm Delete<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/backing-up-the-internet-in-a#>
> Here's what we have in the wiki on the cloud/grid/virtualization issue:
>
> - http://p2pfoundation.net/Cloud_Computing
>
> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization
>
> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_computing
>
> - http://p2pfoundation.net/Grid_Computing
>
> I believe that Gwendal Simon and Sam Rose may have insights on this issue
> as well. Check also the work of Bill St. Arnaud.
>
> In our technology section, http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Technology,
> we have some names of projects:
>
> # For the most fully distributed Peer to Peer Computer Networks at present,
> please check out Tribler ;Peerple ; Wipeer
> # Research into more fully distributed P2P systems for the future: Chord,
> CX Project, Farsite, Globe Project, Oceanstore, Pastry
> # Decentralized P2P software programs are monitored and indexed here
>
>
>
> Michel
>
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>   [image: Josef Davies-Coates]<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/JosefDaviesCoates>
> Permalink <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/xn/detail/2003008:Comment:707>Reply by Josef
> Davies-Coates<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=jdaviescoates>on February
> 20, 2008 at 12:32pm Send Message<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/message/newFromProfile?screenName=jdaviescoates&target=http%3A%2F%2Fp2pfoundation.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fbacking-up-the-internet-in-a>
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> My friend tav (a member on here) has been researching this stuff for quite
> some time (since 2001 at least).
>
> He's not got very far with respect to implementation, but has done a lot of
> the necessary thinking and generally keeps up to date with the latest
> research in the area. I'll prod his to reply here, but have a look around
> his wiki too, eg. http://wiki.espians.com/plexnet
>
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>   [image: Sepp Hasslberger] <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/Sepp>
> Permalink <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/xn/detail/2003008:Comment:892>Reply by Sepp
> Hasslberger<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=8wbjqz2kevz8>on February
> 24, 2008 at 3:45pm Send Message<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/message/newFromProfile?screenName=8wbjqz2kevz8&target=http%3A%2F%2Fp2pfoundation.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fbacking-up-the-internet-in-a>
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> I checked out tav's espians.
>
> As you say, Josef, there is little progress with respect to implementation.
> Also, I don't think that the idea of a distributed internet data backup has
> been touched upon in the ESP material.
>
> Alas, we'll have to start from scratch, it seems.
>
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> SamRose<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=Agentwhy>on February
> 21, 2008 at 2:54am Send Message<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/message/newFromProfile?screenName=Agentwhy&target=http%3A%2F%2Fp2pfoundation.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fbacking-up-the-internet-in-a>
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> paul hartzog has a working model for solving this problem, too. We should
> see if we can engage him in discussion here.
>
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> Hasslberger<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=8wbjqz2kevz8>on March
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> Sam,
>
> do you have a link where we could see what Paul is proposing?
>
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> Permalink <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/xn/detail/2003008:Comment:1095>Reply by Martien
> van Steenbergen<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=Martien>on February
> 29, 2008 at 8:42am Send Message<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/message/newFromProfile?screenName=Martien&target=http%3A%2F%2Fp2pfoundation.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fbacking-up-the-internet-in-a>
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> Hi Sepp,
>
> I'm sure it can be done. I'm sure it will be done. Sooner or later. It's
> just so obvious and natural to do. FYI, a couple of years ago I wrote up a
> conceptual protocol that exactly does what you mention: storing redundant
> copies of every bit of information fully distributed over the net. I called
> it the Wizard, Rabbit and Treasurer. The Wizard is the illusionist, serving
> you your information in a smart way so you have the perception that it's
> always there. Anytime, anywhere, any device. The Rabbit is the one locally
> serving the Wizard and other, remote, Rabbits. In fact, the Rabbits
> implement the peer-to-peer infrastructure for volatile data. The Rabbit uses
> a local Wizard to permanently store data on non-volatile media.
>
> For the protocol proza, please see
> http://wiki.aardrock.com/Wizard_Rabbit_Treasurer
>
> I also think that Sun's ZFS contains many pearls for implementing what you
> describe. Simply connect the storage devices through a network rather than
> through USB, SCSI or IDE. Must fix the timing (latency) issues of course.
>
> Wonder if there are any projects going on in this area.
>
> Thoughts?
>
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>   [image: eggy1943] <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/eggy1943>
> Permalink <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/xn/detail/2003008:Comment:1098>Reply by
> eggy1943<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=ad1jwqhkrddz>on February
> 29, 2008 at 8:53am Send Message<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/message/newFromProfile?screenName=ad1jwqhkrddz&target=http%3A%2F%2Fp2pfoundation.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fbacking-up-the-internet-in-a>
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> If the cables were cut or the internet disallowed by a dictator, the
> information would still be on computers, somewhere. Use snail mail, fax? How
> could we set up an Assembly of we the people to overcome the problem? Big
> problem is alternative ways to contact each other. Anonymous names are hard
> to look up in the phone book.
>
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> Permalink <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/xn/detail/2003008:Comment:1103>Reply by Sepp
> Hasslberger<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=8wbjqz2kevz8>on February
> 29, 2008 at 10:38am Send Message<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/message/newFromProfile?screenName=8wbjqz2kevz8&target=http%3A%2F%2Fp2pfoundation.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fbacking-up-the-internet-in-a>
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> Great Martien,
>
> I see you have done a lot of work on this. Much more than I ever imagined
> had been done. Need some time to study.
>
> I hope others go see your Wizard, Rabbit and Treasurer pages, as well as
> the Armillaria Project <http://wiki.aardrock.com/Armillaria>.
>
> Thanks so much.
>
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> Permalink <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/xn/detail/2003008:Comment:1108>Reply by
> eggy1943<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=ad1jwqhkrddz>on February
> 29, 2008 at 11:21am Send Message<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/message/newFromProfile?screenName=ad1jwqhkrddz&target=http%3A%2F%2Fp2pfoundation.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fbacking-up-the-internet-in-a>
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> Excellent Martien,
> Now I ponder your work a bit. Your post illuminates the issue much.
> Thanks
>
> --
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