[p2p-research] Defining Altruism ? Normative vs Autonomous ? Liberal Vs Conservative ?

Thu Jul 22 20:59:36 CEST 2010

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:48 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> well ryan, all I can say is that a lot of justice departments, both in the
> U.S. and Europe, have thought otherwise, and that Microsoft was effectively
> condemned for a number of its practices ...
>
> the question is not that microsoft has 'not produced' but how it has
> produced what it produced, how it achieved dominance, and according to many,
> including in the business and political community, with people who actually
> share most of your premises, that was not a pretty picture, how did it
> extract the value that paid for the houses and the cars .. as kevin argues,
> and I don't think Microsoft will deny as they are in favour of it, it is not
> based on production, but on rent extraction, the price for production of its
> software has been paid a millions time over ... or, very very
> conservatively, at least 10 times, since companies using open source claim
> to save about 90% of their investment costs ..
>

Ahh, back to intellectual property is theft...again, nothing to say to that
religious view.  It is nonsense to most of the world...always will be.  But
by all means, go on believing.  If a person couldn't resell intellectual
property, the world would be like an African country in a matter of weeks.

>
> what this has to do with hating, I'm not sure I understand, I think most of
> the people in the business community and the justice departments, did not
> hate Bill Gates, they were either rivals at the short end of the stick, or
> officials with concerns about competitivity etc... Microsoft itselt behaved
> as ruthless attack dogs with competitors, which it destroyed without
> compulsion, so where is the hate, and why is one kind of hate more justified
> than the other,
>
>

For me, in business, there is ethics and there is law.  MS might have
stretched ethics once or twice and law once or twice.  Overall, it has
spawned far more good than most institutions...millions have produced untold
economic benefits because of their innovations, marketing, and consistency.
To not celebrate such a great firm is very sad to me.  These are the sorts
of positions that make the left so ridiculous and out of touch with
reality.

> why is a enclosing hate generating billions in rent, less reprehensible
> than a passion for openness, which also generates billions, but spreads it
> out more evenly ..
>

Passion for openness is fine.  Hating people for making a profit is...odd at
least, insane at worst.

>
> the movement for openness indeed saw Microsoft as the prime enemy,  not out
> of any kind of atavistic hate, but from experience with its practices...
>

Yes, perhaps, but they were making hay off of MS.  And MS furthered the
discussion by playing the bad guy...Mozilla villainized them at every turn
and built a huge community in part by making MS appear evil.  If MS is evil,
there is blood on every firms hands.  I'm sure some believe that.  It is a
sad world for such people.  I live in a world where firms make great stuff,
trade it, people use it, and people make a living off of it.  Yes it isn't
perfect.  Is it good?  Far better than anything else ever devised by a long
shot.

>
> Lennon by the way, was most probably wrong, unfortunately, hate has worked
> pretty well as a political force,
>
>

Lennon was a lot more right than Lenin.  Imagine was genius.  You say you
want a revolution probably saved more people from Cold War lunacy than
anything else.  I'd say he was a great hero.  But in that sense I am a bit
of (metaphysical) romantic.

> Michel
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> To call Bill Gates a thief is to make a mockery of theft.  He has
>> produced.  His production has built thousands of good lives, good houses,
>> cars, college educations, etc.
>>
>> To paraphrase John Lennon...if you want support for people with minds that
>> hate...all I can tell you brother is that you'll have to wait.
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:52 PM, Kevin Carson <
>> free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/20/10, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > How would people explain the altruism of a Bill Gates, Warren Buffett,
>>> etc.
>>> > Guilt?
>>> >
>>> > Bill Gates has done far more for humanity than everyone on this list
>>> > combined.  Yet, I suspect many here would hold him in contempt.
>>>
>>> My usual reaction to stories of plutocratic philanthropy is that,
>>> instead of giving back part of what they extracted from society, they
>>> just shouldn't steal in the first place.  I don't think it's possible
>>> to become a billionaire by honest means, without some sort of rent
>>> extraction with the help of the government.  Just about every penny of
>>> Gates' fortune comes from the "intellectual property" rents he's
>>> extracted with the help of the state.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kevin Carson
>>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>>> Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>>> The Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
>>> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
>>> Organization Theory:  A Libertarian Perspective
>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ryan Lanham
>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>  Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>> P.O. Box 633
>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>> Cayman Islands
>> (345) 916-1712
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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-- 
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
P.O. Box 633
Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
Cayman Islands
(345) 916-1712
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