[p2p-research] newsweek on The Creativity Crisis

Thu Jul 22 09:38:34 CEST 2010

Hi Ryan,

this is actually a good example you use, because I think it proves my point
.... "efficiency" is not biological, nature is not efficient and mostly
consist of waste and redundant processes, efficiency being only a very small
part of this ... so efficiency, which you think is biological, is actually a
ideology and a metaphysics, based on a belief that everything should consist
of minimal input to create maximal output  (in other words a capitalist
ideology 'par excellence')... biologists have actually calculated why too
much efficiency is detrimental to systems (such as a document by bernard
lietaer), and I'm sure Paul Hartzog could enlighten us on that ... This is
why as a system, we are now "Nine meals away from anarchy" (NEF report on
the food reserves available in western cities)

Evidence-based medicine is the same, an ideology, it is directed at
alternative medicines which are supported by the people (and the smartest
amongst them, as complementary medicine is correlated according to education
levels), and does not look at falsification of results through
pharmaceutical corruption .. in other words, the kinds of 'evidence' you are
looking for are predetermined by your metaphysics,

This is inevitable and it is why we should be honest about our metaphysics,
rather than deny we have one .. this is why you can confidently think that
only other people have metaphysics, while your practice is based on
evidence, but of course, it won't fly with the people who disagree with you,
as they will want to negotiate on the type of evidence that will be
collected, and not take your word for it

so my question is, how can you be such an exceptional human being that you
have no system of morality, and no a priori judgments ? who can really
believe that? I'm really surprised that you can believe that about yourself,

would you believe it if I said so, or anyone else you disagreed with?

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> OK.  But for me, metaphysics is a belief in some sort of system of morality
> that derives from a priori judgments.  It is inherently political.
> Efficiency is biological.  There are optimal systems for human thriving.  I
> know we need morality in a biological sense, and I am all for systems.  But
> these must be pragmatic and socially responsive to some means of
> governance.  Simply arguing this system or that system is best because of
> this moral pretext, that religion, or this view...is medieval.   It is time
> for humanity to move on to evidence-based policies driven by what is optimal
> for society as judged by means of governance that expand progress and
> value.  In the end, progress and value are really one thing.  Metaphysics,
> in my view, tends to destroy value because it seeks to impose the
> politics/morality of a worldview instead of optimizing for human desires and
> needs.  I can be argued what those desires and needs are, and how they
> should be sorted and processed...and I would call that evidence-based
> policy.  That world relieves us of the metaphysical wanderings about what
> justice means, what is equality, etc.  Those have wasted good minds for
> centuries.  Better, in my view, to actually help people get something they
> want than to talk about what they should want.
>
> When universities and public research begin to respond to human need
> instead of the selfish research desires and metaphysical interests of
> faculty and researchers, we'll start to see them be of real value.  In the
> interim, they are just consumers and free riders.
>
> R.
>
> R.
>
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 3:10 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> let's agree to disagree, I am still in favour of public funding of
>> research and education, if combined with democratic control, rather than
>> private entities beholden to shareholders, who have only their private
>> interests at hart,
>>
>> it can't be avoided, these are your metaphysics, and mine are different,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Michel,
>>>
>>> There is a great deal of good basic science that is privately funded.
>>>  Personally, I like that model.  States waste.  It's that simple.  Everyone
>>> wants a free and easy living.  Who gets such a free ride should be really
>>> carefully controlled.  Personally, I'd prefer to finance a microcredit bank
>>> in Haiti to building the CERN accelerator which I seriously doubt will ever
>>> give humanity any tangible benefit.  That said, if George Soros wanted to
>>> build CERN with his billions, I'd be thrilled to read the fascinating
>>> results.   Politicians and bureaucrats ought not to be the ones who
>>> determine where and how societies spend their resources except in issues of
>>> national emergency and economic growth--much as Adam Smith advocated.
>>>  Social safety nets and national healthcare systems are far better
>>> investments than research universities...and the research universities can
>>> easily self-fund with rich alumni.  What we are really discussing is fear of
>>> control.  People want the state to be their shield against scrutiny outside
>>> of their "peers."  Nice work if you can get it...especially when someone
>>> else is paying the bill.
>>>
>>> R.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 12:51 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ryan, your first statement is about the total contrary of what I would
>>>> advocate ... Most analyst and scientist would totally disagree with your
>>>> view on knowledge as such, and claim that it is especially disinterested
>>>> basic science, that has created the most fundamental breakthroughs, not
>>>> shortermist pursuit of profitable spinoffs and the repression of curiosity
>>>> in academia for the sake of profit. It is really artificiall to put
>>>> theory/action as opposites, they go hand in hand, theory and world vision
>>>> nearly always is what is necessary to inspire real world action
>>>>
>>>> it was precisely public funding of education which guaranteed broader
>>>> education for all, and having worked for a private university last year, I
>>>> have now seen close by how the profit motive distorts education at all
>>>> levels .. the only acceptable way for me is to have educational institutions
>>>> run by nonprofit foundations with a public interest, with public funding,
>>>> but not necessarily as state institutions, since they are most often
>>>> centralized and bureaucratized .. ... And subsuming knowledge to private
>>>> interests is for me the absolute nightmare ... You are advocating precisely
>>>> the kind  of measures that have led to the present educational measure ...
>>>> Please don't misunderstand, I'm not against 'private' initiative and free
>>>> schools, just against schools where education is subsumed to private profit
>>>> models ... Without giving you names, but this is a real story, if you are a
>>>> poor girl on a scholarship, and violated by the son of a rich lawer, you can
>>>> pretty much forget due process ...
>>>>
>>>> I symphatize with 2 if applied to transhumanist dreamers <g>, but
>>>> otherwise would point out that there are just as many people inspired by
>>>> their spirituality to advance their life (see the protestant work ethic) as
>>>> the other way around, and that a dole is what the excluded most often need
>>>> just to become active and productive in their society ..
>>>>
>>>>   On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 2:44 AM, Michael Gurstein <
>>>>>> gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This could be right. I recall I believe it was Michel that pointed out
>>>>>> on this list a few months back that when the "cold war" ended in the
>>>>>> US, government funding for culture also dried up. The government
>>>>>> funded culture (public access television, arts, theatre, etc in
>>>>>> communities) as part of the "cold war"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> quote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> examples:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/10/17/051017crat_atlarge
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (looking for other that are more objective)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> My own view of why creativity is falling is threefold:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. There is a glut of funding for schools and research such that real
>>>>> value is mocked and avoided.  Somehow the idea of "knowledge" as an end
>>>>> became morally acceptable.  Such academics strike me as people nearly as
>>>>> immoral as some of the worst criminals.  They choose to waste their lives
>>>>> studying the valueless.  Consequently, University funding needs to fall by
>>>>> 75% from states.  We need huge private sector investment to get actual
>>>>> productivity from schools at all levels.  Nearly all state schools at all
>>>>> levels should be privatized.  Fortunately, the UK and several US states are
>>>>> moving rapidly in this direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. People remain mired in metaphysical and religious dreams that
>>>>> dissuade them from improving life on this planet.  Too often this allows
>>>>> poor people to accept their lot and seek a dole rather than an active means
>>>>> of solving their issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. And most importantly, we don't have the maker centres and technical
>>>>> play centres available to societies to build and explore garage-level
>>>>> innovation.  Instead, people sit glued to mass consumption media and allow
>>>>> themselves to be passively entertained as opposed to actively solving
>>>>> problems.  This is even worse amongst the theorizing/observing set who
>>>>> really produce almost nothing while carrying in many cases a decent mind
>>>>> that could actually solve some real world issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> Think tank:
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan Lanham
>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>> P.O. Box 633
>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>> Cayman Islands
>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20100722/4074e41d/attachment.html>