[p2p-research] Defining Altruism ? Normative vs Autonomous ? Liberal Vs Conservative ?

Michel Bauwens michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Tue Jul 20 15:25:26 CEST 2010 

hi, I think this important to put the altruism in context, no human person
can be purely altruist all the time, as such a person would not live very
long

but a concept of interdependency makes self-interest encompass the others:

see http://p2pfoundation.net/Primary_vs_Secondary_Individual-Group_Mentality



A distinction made by Heb Shepard, summarized by Rosa Zubizarreta:


*from the perspective of "primary mentality", 'individual' and 'group' are
experienced as opposite...* in order to have a strong group, it appears that
we need to 'give up' some of our individuality; conversely, to be
'individuals', it appears we need to 'distance' ourselves from the group...

*in contrast, from the perspective of "secondary mentality" 'individual' and
'group' are experienced in a synergistic way*: the MORE room there is for
people to be individual and unique and eccentric, the stronger a group we
will have; conversely, the more real support i can feel from the group, the
more individual and unique and eccentric i can be...



[edit<http://p2pfoundation.net/Primary_vs_Secondary_Individual-Group_Mentality?title=Primary_vs_Secondary_Individual-Group_Mentality&action=edit&section=1>
] Citation

Rosa Zubizarreta:


"[what's crucial is] whether we are experiencing the 'two sides' [of
individual and collective] as a 'zero-sum game', where the MORE room there
is of one, the LESS room there can be for the other...

OR instead, as a potential synergy, a 'creative tension' where the
well-being of each, enhances the well-being of the other....

Herb Shepard, one of the pioneers of organization development, wrote years
ago about the distinction between what he called "primary mentality" and
"secondary mentality"....

from the perspective of "primary mentality", 'individual' and 'group' are
experienced as opposite... in order to have a strong group, it appears that
we need to 'give up' some of our individuality; conversely, to be
'individuals', it appears we need to 'distance' ourselves from the group...

in contrast, from the perspective of "secondary mentality" 'individual' and
'group' are experienced in a synergistic way: the MORE room there is for
people to be individual and unique and eccentric, the stronger a group we
will have; conversely, the more real support i can feel from the group, the
more individual and unique and eccentric i can be...

i think that what Shepard was referring to as a 'mentality' (whether primary
or secondary) resides not just within each of us, as individuals, but also,
within a group, or culture, or social arrangement...

not just in 'individual consciousness' OR in 'group structures', but in
BOTH...

so we as individuals, we can always discover or create ways to 'resist'
structures that are organized along the lines of 'primary mentality', and,
find ways to create forms of social interaction, that support 'secondary
mentality"....

AND, at the same time, the social forms of organization, _do_ affect us...
making one or another form of mentality, more likely... Our ways of talking
and thinking and organizing ourselves, tend to be rooted in one or the other
mentality.....

i think it's also important to recognize, that these forms or structures,
that embody and support these different kinds of consciousness can be
'habitual' and 'informal', rather than 'explicit/formal'... so even when a
community has rejected the conventional forms of organization which could be
seen as embodying primary mentality (voting, majority rules, bureaucratic
structures, etc...)

it's still the case, that the community will tend to have a particular
'culture', or 'way of doing things'... and that culture will not necessarily
be 'secondary' since as individuals, we still tend to carry the "primary
mentality" within us, even in the absence of conventional forms of
organization...

so the desire to 'belong', to 'get along', to 'not be excluded from the
group', along with the internalized belief, that to do so, we need to 'not
make waves', can tend to silence a lot of potential divergence and encourage
conformity to the prevailing cultural norms... (the 'groupthink'
phenomenon....

i think this may connect in some way, with what Danah Boyd was pointing to,
about her concern with the wikipedia community's adulation of the
media...<http://p2pfoundation.net/Primary_vs_Secondary_Individual-Group_Mentality?title=I_think_this_may_connect_in_some_way,_with_what_Danah_Boyd_was_pointing_to,_about_her_concern_with_the_wikipedia_community%27s_adulation_of_the_media...&action=edit&redlink=1>

so, to whatever degree a community does _not_ have effective ways of
creating containers for divergent perspectives and ways of being, effective
ways in which difference and conflict can transform into greater creativity,


people will _still_, tend to experience an 'either-or', between 'being
themselves', and 'being a part of the community'... even in the absence of
the formal structures that embody primary mentality...

this is _not_ something we can "think ourselves out of", in my view,
although, theory can be helpful...

we need to create, the EXPERIENCE, of "safe places for the fullness of our
individuality to manifest itself, IN THE CONTEXT OF, shared space..."

[[this is the purpose of a kind of facilitation which focuses on DIVERGENCE,
not convergence, in a way that allows authentic (emergent) convergence to
take place freely, of its own accord...

my experience of much of conventional facilitation, is that it is on the
"reductionist collectivism" end of the spectrum...:-) ]]

without alternative structures that welcome individual creativity and
divergence within a shared space, all we know is what we DON'T want, and so
we tend to throw out the formal structures that embody primary mentality
(voting, majority rules, bureaucratic structures, etc.) without having
anything to put in their place...

as the critics of consensus and deliberation have pointed out, these
"primary mentality" structures often do give SOME protection to the minority
perspective. However i am NOT arguing here, in 'favor' of them... i am
simply pointing out that, _without_ those formal structure ,AND, _without
anything else_, to take their place, we can become even MORE vulnerable to
the pull of cultural conformity that operates, generally implicitly, often
throughinformal networks, status and influence, 'the way things are done
around here', etc. etc. etc."


On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is useful for enlightened self-interest, which, in short, smears the
> definition of altruism, by and large, but gives some context:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_self-interest#Altruism
>
>  Altruism
>
> Enlightened self-interest is also different from pure altruism<http://wiki/Altruism>,
>> which calls for people to act in the interest of others often at the expense
>> of their own interests and with no expectation of benefit for themselves in
>> the future. Some advocates of enlightened self-interest might argue that
>> pure altruism promotes inefficiency <http://wiki/Inefficiency> as well.
>
>  [edit<http://w/index.php?title=Enlightened_self-interest&action=edit&section=6>
> ]
>
> Economics
>
>
>    -
>
>    E. E. "Doc" Smith <http://wiki/E._E._Smith>, in his science fiction
>    book "Subspace Explorers <http://wiki/Subspace_Explorers>", posited an
>    economic formula that would control profits and bonuses, which he referred
>    to as "The principle of enlightened self-interest".
>
>
>
> The wikipedia entry makes the point of actors understanding the needs of
> others, acting in others interest, and that this behavior has no consequence
> to their own self interest.  This is a combinatorial definition, using the
> other definitions of altruism and adding on to them.
>
> The Nash Equilibirum demonstrates the validity and utility of this kind of
> enlightened self-interest:
>
> http://variagate.com/equilib.htm?beaumind
>
> I've been writing a page about a p2p relational system
> http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Relational_System
>
> I have some content on self-interest and how enlightened interest plays
> out.
>
> EE Doc Smith is mentioned above.  He wrote over a long period, and created
> the lensman series.  The main characters are "incorruptible" people who are
> given the gift of telepathic communication and guide the way to the
> expansion of the human race throughout two galaxies.  Through the 13 or so
> novels of his that I've read the characters, the main characters, are always
> in total 'knowing' of their self-interest, and their "gifts" allow them to
> trust each other.  Indeed the greatest threats to the universe are always
> those that seek to break that trust.  These are characters who never submit,
> never give up, know exactly what they need, and are always willing to say
> they dont know, they can't yet, or that they need help.
>
> That is an impossible set of attributes.  So, what then....
>
> People iterate.  Through processes of greater and lesser knowing.  Of
> trying, failing and picking a new direction.
>
> Questioning the self-interest of someone, or looking for altruism, are
> useless without knowing ones self.  That's my contention.
>
> That is why Ayn Rand's flavor is called rational altruism.
>
> There's a favorite saying of mine:  "Know thyself and you will know the
> universe and all its Gods."
>
> I add, know thyself and it will be easier to screw yourself over than for
> someone to take advantage of you. Then you don't need to concern yourself
> with altruism, either.
>
> A
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> interesting distinction of altruism below, as found by Dante,
>>
>> it sheds light on differences like the one between Ryan, who just today
>> saw the culture of the poor as responsible for their plight, and my own
>> response to that,
>>
>> see here, the source is below:
>>
>> Politically conservative individuals tend to attribute the causes for a
>> victim's plight (e.g., poverty, homelessness) internally
>> Less sympathy is generated for the victim and consequently less help is
>> given
>> Tendency to hold a belief in a just world (everyone gets what they deserve
>> and deserves what they get)
>> Politically liberal individuals are more likely to make external
>> attributions (e.g., to society) for a victim's plight
>> More sympathy is aroused and more helping occurs
>> Less of a tendency toward just world thinking
>>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>> Tec defines two forms of altruism:
>> Normative altruism: Altruism that is supported and encouraged by cultural
>> norms
>> Autonomous altruism: Individually-based altruism that is not supported,
>> and may even be discouraged, by cultural norms
>>
>> Defining Altruism
>> Prosocial behavior: Any behavior that benefits others
>> Helping behavior: Behavior that benefits others that is performed with the
>> anticipation of some reward
>> Focus is on the self more than on the victim
>> Egoism is the dominant motive
>> Donating to a charity to get a tax break
>> Helping a friend so she will help you in return
>> Altruism: Selfless help that is performed without the anticipation of
>> reward
>> Focus is on relieving the suffering of the victim and not consequences to
>> the self
>> Empathy is the dominant underlying motive
>> Anonymous donation to charity
>> Teacher in Littleton, CO Columbine shootings
>>
>> Politically conservative individuals tend to attribute the causes for a
>> victim's plight (e.g., poverty, homelessness) internally
>> Less sympathy is generated for the victim and consequently less help is
>> given
>> Tendency to hold a belief in a just world (everyone gets what they deserve
>> and deserves what they get)
>> Politically liberal individuals are more likely to make external
>> attributions (e.g., to society) for a victim's plight
>> More sympathy is aroused and more helping occurs
>> Less of a tendency toward just world thinking
>>
>>   On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In relation to "Incentives", including in p2p relational dynamics,
>>>
>>> When doing some searches as to understand  differences of spectrum
>>> between "Autonomous Altruists" and "Collaborative Individualists" ,
>>>
>>> ( related links http://delicious.com/deliciousdante/principles , and a
>>> related group discussion : http://tiny.cc/28ti1<http://groups.google.com/group/econowmix/browse_thread/thread/4869fa005c611b16/70160b4dd49f128a?lnk=gst&q=autonomous#70160b4dd49f128a>
>>>  )
>>>
>>> I found out about this page :
>>>
>>> http://users.ipfw.edu/bordens/social/help.htm
>>>
>>> and wish to share some excerpts,
>>> related to defining altruism,
>>> but also to the influence on attributions from political views ( liberal
>>> or conservative )
>>>
>>> ---------
>>>
>>>
>>>    - Tec defines two forms of altruism:
>>>       - *Normative altruism*: Altruism that is supported and encouraged
>>>       by cultural norms
>>>       - *Autonomous altruism*: Individually-based altruism that is not
>>>       supported, and may even be discouraged, by cultural norms
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - Defining Altruism
>>>       - *Prosocial behavior:* Any behavior that benefits others
>>>       - *Helping behavior:* Behavior that benefits others that is
>>>       performed with the anticipation of some reward
>>>          - Focus is on the self more than on the victim
>>>             - Egoism is the dominant motive
>>>             - Donating to a charity to get a tax break
>>>             - Helping a friend so she will help you in return
>>>          - *Altruism:* Selfless help that is performed without the
>>>       anticipation of reward
>>>          - Focus is on relieving the suffering of the victim and not
>>>          consequences to the self
>>>          - Empathy is the dominant underlying motive
>>>             - Anonymous donation to charity
>>>             - Teacher in Littleton, CO Columbine shootings
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - Politically conservative individuals tend to attribute the causes
>>>    for a victim's plight (e.g., poverty, homelessness) internally
>>>       - Less sympathy is generated for the victim and consequently less
>>>       help is given
>>>       - Tendency to hold a belief in a just world (everyone gets what
>>>       they deserve and deserves what they get)
>>>    - Politically liberal individuals are more likely to make external
>>>    attributions (e.g., to society) for a victim's plight
>>>       - More sympathy is aroused and more helping occurs
>>>       - Less of a tendency toward just world thinking
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> note :
>>> I m interested in finding out the categories that best relate to this -
>>> potentially
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Relational<http://videos.p2pfoundation.net/Category:Relational>
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Participation<http://videos.p2pfoundation.net/Category:Participation>
>>>
>>> and other incentive related pages ?
>>>
>>> perhaps also http://p2pfoundation.net/Altruism<http://videos.p2pfoundation.net/Altruism>
>>>  ,
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Relational_Model_Typology_-_Fiske
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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>>
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>>
>> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


-- 
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