[p2p-research] ecotechnic future

Tue Jul 20 14:23:19 CEST 2010

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Alex,
> in my own approach, I have defined peer to peer as based on 'generalized
> non-reciprocal exchange', i.e. non-conditional exchange of individuals with
> a whole (the whole being the commons)
>

It has also been said repeatedly that the exchange is within a distributed
network, and that means agreements.  These agreements are always hedged
against the value of a commons as individual benefit, and direct reciprocity
is not required for that.

>
> in material production, this is rarely practiced or possible, hence they
> are based on conditional exchange, and material commons are similarly
> regulated for conditional access and use,
>

This is under review at the moment.  The progress in the understanding of
the concept of a 'commons' is remarkable, and a growing body of work is
showing how the non-reciprocal exchange you mentioned, mediated by a commons
actually helps a network instead of hurting it.  The point is equity, a
contract arising from the agreement of peers in the network.  The system
must be complex enough to allow peers to equitably regulate their own
activities in a sphere that is relevant to them and connected to the commons
and the network.  This is a formula for an approach to peer production with
regards to any commons, regardless of the nature of the resource.

>
> can the latter be called peer production?
>

Definitely.  One hint wold be to say that a distributed network means only
non-submission.  To centralization or decentralization.

>
> now as long as we keep in mind these important distinctions and know what
> we're talking about, definitional fights are not necessary,
>

What are the distinctions?

>
> I also think Dmytri Kleiner may have a different take on defining peer
> production ..
>
> I think he defines peer production everywhere where peers hold a resource
> in common, and he would differentiate access and exchange with the commons
> according to whether you are dealing with other commons, or with private
> for-profit enterprises, only the former would have open and free access to
> the knowledge commons of the community,
>

This is a form of complexification of networks in order to manage complex
resource or production systems.

>
> to conclude and answer your question, in my view, the dependence of the
> internet  is only in the sense that it is the 'affordance' which makes
> knowledge/code/design abundant, and hence a anti-rival resource ..
>

Yes, for these particular production methods for the particular resources in
question.  Inability to access to hi-tech means that some people, otherwise
qualified, end up as wage slaves.

>
> Michel
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I have heard the argument that peer production requires internet and
>> high-tech tools but I don't think this is the case.  The assertion is often
>> made in the context of p2p as software production only, and doesn't often
>> extend to peer networks engaging commons based practices that are not in
>> software.  Many worker owned cooperatives could qualify as commons based
>> peer produced enterprises, in my view.  That these enterprises don't or
>> can't engage more complex analysis may mean they cannot join other networks
>> but it doesn't mean they aren't networks themselves.   I'm thinking of  a
>> worker owned brewery in Amsterdam.
>>
>> A
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> hi joss,
>>>
>>> you could be right, hypothesing on greer's point of view, that our p2p
>>> approach has a fatal flaw, it is it's reliance on the further existence of
>>> networked communication,
>>>
>>> but precisely because greer himself posits a long and phased descent, I
>>> think it is likely that even when the globalized peak oil regime collapses,
>>> local communities will have enough resources to adapt or modify the new
>>> universal info and communication infrastructure ...
>>>
>>> what do other think, this is a very crucial point for the human future?
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>   On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Joss Winn <joss at josswinn.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19/07/10 07:08, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>> > Hi Kevin,
>>>> >
>>>> > feel free to take any take you want, though I believe that Greer's
>>>> > thinking is actually quite sophisticated and precise, and he's not at
>>>> > all a simple-minded primitivist ..
>>>>
>>>> I'd second that.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > his current project is to create a huge commons for appropriate
>>>> > technology knowledge that could be used for local communities,
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm not sure what his take is on networked technology,
>>>>
>>>> I think he envisages its decline. I'm pretty certain I've read comments
>>>> to that effect. Here's a post which is typical:
>>>>
>>>> http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2010/03/logic-of-abundance.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > his response to my emails were: "read my book" <g>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I've read his Long Descent, which I enjoyed. For a shorter statement on
>>>> his collapse theory, see:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ecoshock.org/transcripts/greer_on_collapse.pdf
>>>>
>>>> It's worth keeping in mind that for Greer, we are already in a process
>>>> of collapse - it is not something in the future but a historical,
>>>> observable fact. For Greer, Peak Oil, declining net energy, ecological
>>>> overshoot, financial collapse, etc. attest to this.
>>>>
>>>> I think he would support the pragmatism of P2P but find the centrality
>>>> of and reliance on networked communication to be its fatal flaw. If you
>>>> buy the theory of net energy depletion (http://www.esf.edu/efb/hall/),
>>>> it suggests that the energy intensive lives of developed countries will
>>>> decline to a level that can be supported by fairly simple renewable
>>>> energy (remember that current renewable energy is built with fossil
>>>> fuels - a world of renewables built on renewables is not the same).
>>>>
>>>> As far as technology is concerned, Greer advocates stuff like home-made
>>>> solar showers and learning the use of a slide ruler:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2007/01/principles-for-sustainable-tech.html
>>>>
>>>> Joss
>>>>
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