[p2p-research] wiki controversy ..

Tue Jul 20 14:16:21 CEST 2010

we had a productive and appeasing talk,

Michel

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> I edit on this thing about 16 hours a day at the moment.  I'm working on a
> definitional set of documents for P2P.  I'm using a number of the more
> complex editing functions to facilitate the interdependent documents.  This
> is meant to be used by groups interested in using a P2P approach in their
> enterprise.  It's highly interlinked with the wiki.
>
> I just got off Skype with Michel.  The basic thing is, this is Mediawiki.
>  It does some weird things, and anyone editing it can get in to trouble.
>  I've lost all manner of edits and other hiccups in the process of learning
> to use it.
>
> This is a community wiki.  The community members can call on each other for
> help.  Feel free to contact me if you need some help with something.  I've
> written about 60 pages of documentation on the wiki so far in an attempt to
> give away as much empowerment as possible so that others don't have to learn
> the hard way like I did.
>
> The wiki still need help.  The installation is incorrect (not in a
> subfolder), it is out of date (2 version) and their are mass-changes,
> widespread find-replace work, that need to be done to have it meet the
> wishes.  These are technical issues, on one hand, and also social issues as
> they will require collaboration.
>
> As such, the fanning of hostility is, for me, to be avoided.  I am mostly,
> usually, ready to listen anger.  If you or anyone is pissed at me, let me
> know.  We can work it out, usually, if we are both willing to hear each
> other out and to meet the other half way.
>
> Alex
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> hi james,
>>
>> I'm not sorry about the greek situation at all, that was absolutely
>> necessary to bring out in the open what they were trying to do, and if we
>> get any compensation out of it, I'm pretty sure it's related .. if I
>> understand you correctly you are referring to the fact that our discussions
>> can be forwarded and become much more public than necessary ?
>>
>> but the intervention itself was justified and how to do it differently
>> than informing the people via the list, as even broadcasted private emails
>> could be forwarded?
>>
>> remember, as they themselves acknowledged, the greeks had decided secretly
>> during the day itself to get us out of the project, and they clearly showed
>> they wanted to do this unceremoniously, without due process and without any
>> compensation ...
>>
>> of course they didn't like it being in the open, but I have received quite
>> a bit of letters from other greeks telling me, "we could have told you so"
>> ... remember also that in the greek case, the article I wrote was preceded
>> by numerous attempts by myself and Adam to communicate, but never got any
>> responses, while they were conducting separate discussions of which we were
>> excluded ..
>>
>> the logic is the same actually in the present case, if I felt I would be
>> heard in my private communication, I would not resort to a public
>> discussion,
>>
>> when the future of the wiki and the work of the p2p foundation is at
>> stake, it is worth discussing it in public, even if I'm mistaken and
>> over-reacting, as people can react to it, as you did,
>>
>> similarly in this case many new initiatives have been taken, new logics
>> instituted, many without any discussion, this is not problematic in itself,
>> there is no need to always 'ask for permission', but you still need to be
>> open to challenges post-facto, and react to it in proper ways
>>
>> I'd prefer it myself if major initiatives were discussed in this list, and
>> to have input from others, rather than any strategy of "faits accomplis"
>>
>> now I agree that broadcasting controversial discussions to everyone can be
>> problematic, especially as they involve real persons, and it can be used
>> against us, me or alex ... it's a problem, I have no ready-made solution for
>> this ...
>>
>> make the p2p-list not searchable, retroactively hide or delete
>> discussions, or just accept that we are frail humans, bound to
>> misunderstandings and that some of our communications will be abused later
>> on ...
>>
>> again to conclude, I accept and applaud the contributions of Alex, this is
>> not what the discussion is about, and thanks James to attempt to moderate
>> any of my exagerrations ..
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>   On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 4:42 PM, james burke <lifesized at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Michel,
>>>
>>> i hear you feeling threatened,
>>> but as i've experienced recently, (remember that greek situation)
>>> I think shouting out loud about existential threats on this public email
>>> lists broadcasting to everyone
>>> it the less practical of solutions, while scheduling a skype conversation
>>> between you and alex is more useful,
>>> so without further ado, let's do that as there should be space for both
>>> of you to contribute and not nuke the commons so created.
>>>
>>> Let's continue this between Alex and you and me, and if anyone else wants
>>> to join, mail me
>>> privately and add your skype name
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>> james
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>
>>>> I may have appeared rather harsh and too emotional in my previous
>>>> exchange with Alex, and Alex is probably wisely refraining from putting more
>>>> oil in the water at the time when I'm clearly 'excited' ..
>>>>
>>>> still, I want to explain my perspective on why this is happening,
>>>>
>>>> First, I hope you understand that when a person works a number of years
>>>> on a project, at substantial cost in terms of personal and family security,
>>>> you do get emotionally involved in your project, even if you formulate and
>>>> construct it as a commons; like Marcin, who clearly overreacted last year
>>>> and had mistakenly accused some people, I may also overreact at times ..
>>>>
>>>> I say may, and perhaps indeed in the form I have been too harsh, but in
>>>> any case, here are two reasons, and perhaps a third personal one:
>>>>
>>>> - first, I really considered this as the gravest existential threat to
>>>> the continued existence of the wiki as I had envisaged it ..
>>>>
>>>> - second, the kind of responses I got, mostly offlist, but also on the
>>>> list, made me fear that my concerns got no hearing
>>>>
>>>> - third, this is the personal aspect, there is a personal dialectic
>>>> going on when a alpha male type, who is mostly undisturbed and sometimes
>>>> thrives on conflict, is faced with a conflict-intolerant person like me.
>>>> I'm  not proud of this, this is a personality quirk, but I don't thrive on
>>>> conflict, frequently somatize on it, and hence generally avoid this mode,
>>>> BUT, this is the problem, when I face a real threat, and feel my own
>>>> weakness in conducting a conflict, then I have to overreact to protect what
>>>> I see as essential boundaries. So, while generally a mellow person, seen by
>>>> my environment as tolerant and taking things in stride, I got to really
>>>> mobilize my defensive energies in specific circumstances. Always comes with
>>>> a price tag though .. last thursday, upset with the conflict, I must have
>>>> paid insufficient attention to the 'embodiedness' required for jogging and
>>>> the result is I can hardly walk for the last five days, as I have a very
>>>> painful strained muscle ... just to show you I do not thrive or conflict,
>>>>
>>>> so, to return to the conflict at hand,
>>>>
>>>> first, let me say I deeply appreciate the many ways in which Alex has
>>>> improving the wiki. This does not mean that I find everything he does
>>>> positive or unproblematic, but generally speaking I do not want to police
>>>> other people's contributions.
>>>>
>>>> secondly however, it is very important to me that the legacy logic of
>>>> the wiki is respected, representing four years of hard work, and thought out
>>>> organisation ...
>>>>
>>>> the superficial problem is a proliferation of redirects and new
>>>> categories and subcategories, most of which will stay empty and confuse
>>>> people, some of which like the redirects which will impede people to
>>>> contribute on individual pages
>>>>
>>>> the more deeper problem is that the new layer can only be a improvement
>>>> of the older wiki, but not a replacement or a hostile takeover that imposes
>>>> a new and alien logic on what was done before,
>>>>
>>>> and as I said, the personal problem when my concerns are answered back
>>>> in authoritarian ways, basically saying "f off, it's my way or the highway
>>>> and I will restore any of your edits"
>>>>
>>>> So this is basically it,
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> Think tank:
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Web: www.lifesized.net  Phone:+31 (0)6 5244 6445 Twitter: @lifesized
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
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