[p2p-research] ecotechnic future

Tue Jul 20 14:11:42 CEST 2010

Hi Alex,

this amounts to a definitional issue,

in my own approach, I have defined peer to peer as based on 'generalized
non-reciprocal exchange', i.e. non-conditional exchange of individuals with
a whole (the whole being the commons)

in material production, this is rarely practiced or possible, hence they are
based on conditional exchange, and material commons are similarly regulated
for conditional access and use,

obviously the commons will take different forms whether a resource is
anti-rival or rival and depletable,

can the latter be called peer production?

the marxist left used to distinguish socialism from communism precisely for
this reason,

now as long as we keep in mind these important distinctions and know what
we're talking about, definitional fights are not necessary,

I also think Dmytri Kleiner may have a different take on defining peer
production ..

I think he defines peer production everywhere where peers hold a resource in
common, and he would differentiate access and exchange with the commons
according to whether you are dealing with other commons, or with private
for-profit enterprises, only the former would have open and free access to
the knowledge commons of the community,

to conclude and answer your question, in my view, the dependence of the
internet  is only in the sense that it is the 'affordance' which makes
knowledge/code/design abundant, and hence a anti-rival resource ..

Michel

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have heard the argument that peer production requires internet and
> high-tech tools but I don't think this is the case.  The assertion is often
> made in the context of p2p as software production only, and doesn't often
> extend to peer networks engaging commons based practices that are not in
> software.  Many worker owned cooperatives could qualify as commons based
> peer produced enterprises, in my view.  That these enterprises don't or
> can't engage more complex analysis may mean they cannot join other networks
> but it doesn't mean they aren't networks themselves.   I'm thinking of  a
> worker owned brewery in Amsterdam.
>
> A
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> hi joss,
>>
>> you could be right, hypothesing on greer's point of view, that our p2p
>> approach has a fatal flaw, it is it's reliance on the further existence of
>> networked communication,
>>
>> but precisely because greer himself posits a long and phased descent, I
>> think it is likely that even when the globalized peak oil regime collapses,
>> local communities will have enough resources to adapt or modify the new
>> universal info and communication infrastructure ...
>>
>> what do other think, this is a very crucial point for the human future?
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>   On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Joss Winn <joss at josswinn.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/07/10 07:08, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>> > Hi Kevin,
>>> >
>>> > feel free to take any take you want, though I believe that Greer's
>>> > thinking is actually quite sophisticated and precise, and he's not at
>>> > all a simple-minded primitivist ..
>>>
>>> I'd second that.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > his current project is to create a huge commons for appropriate
>>> > technology knowledge that could be used for local communities,
>>> >
>>> > I'm not sure what his take is on networked technology,
>>>
>>> I think he envisages its decline. I'm pretty certain I've read comments
>>> to that effect. Here's a post which is typical:
>>>
>>> http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2010/03/logic-of-abundance.html
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > his response to my emails were: "read my book" <g>
>>> >
>>>
>>> I've read his Long Descent, which I enjoyed. For a shorter statement on
>>> his collapse theory, see:
>>>
>>> http://www.ecoshock.org/transcripts/greer_on_collapse.pdf
>>>
>>> It's worth keeping in mind that for Greer, we are already in a process
>>> of collapse - it is not something in the future but a historical,
>>> observable fact. For Greer, Peak Oil, declining net energy, ecological
>>> overshoot, financial collapse, etc. attest to this.
>>>
>>> I think he would support the pragmatism of P2P but find the centrality
>>> of and reliance on networked communication to be its fatal flaw. If you
>>> buy the theory of net energy depletion (http://www.esf.edu/efb/hall/),
>>> it suggests that the energy intensive lives of developed countries will
>>> decline to a level that can be supported by fairly simple renewable
>>> energy (remember that current renewable energy is built with fossil
>>> fuels - a world of renewables built on renewables is not the same).
>>>
>>> As far as technology is concerned, Greer advocates stuff like home-made
>>> solar showers and learning the use of a slide ruler:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2007/01/principles-for-sustainable-tech.html
>>>
>>> Joss
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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