[p2p-research] Mesh - Not for profit Cooperative + "Megabytes" Currency

Mon Jul 19 14:22:45 CEST 2010

Hi Alex,

thanks for your 11 points reply.

http://freethenet.ca/ sounds like a nice model.

---

I wonder if the first step could be to

- evaluate the costs of setting up a few nodes/routers in a limited area -
without necessarily connecting them to the internet.

- making it possible to anyone finding such nodes,
to download a software from these nodes on their devices ( options for
various OS ),
as
1) enable their laptop/phone to be a participating node in the mesh when
they choose to
2) giving them the option of sharing their internet, directly through the
wifi connection of their laptop/phone/...

- I do not know *if such software already exists* -

a later stage potentially being for people to modify the protocols of their
routers, or buy routers that are compliant with one/several communication
protocols ?

---

for hardware , software, prices and protocols used,
openmesh hardware sounds nice.

its nice to see *what is already available out of the box, and at what price
*.

i do like the idea of being able to update and add multiple protocols, even
at a distance. ( although cracking concerns may be taken into account )
i also like the potential of using "batman" and "robin"
i guess all this is possible providing the expertise.

---

*if cash is not involved* in exchange for internet data currency,

the question for me becomes : *how to self-finance some of the ( purchase of
) nodes* needed to keep a minimum permanent presence, especially in areas
where there are few participants, as to bridge zones with different levels
of mesh density ?

/ *what is the "cash" version of the "business model"* ,
even if it is a not for profit approach - which could partner with existing
not for profit mesh projects.

Forwarded conversation
Subject: Mesh - Not for profit Cooperative + "Megabytes" Currency
------------------------

From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante at ecobytes.net>
Date: Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 4:52 PM

Hi Alex,
Caroline, Sepp, Meinhard, Gael

I ( we**? ) want to set up a Mesh Cooperative.

I created an entry on

http://cashwiki.org/en/A_Mesh_Data_Currency

---

In addition to the set up and interoperability of the communication
protocols,
it can use an "alternative currency" for accessing the internet. ( its units
/ megabytes / can also be used as currency for any other type of exchanges )

Ideally it creates partnerships between all participants, credits earned by
the network preferably reinvested into valorizing the network while
promoting open source hardware.
*
*
*It works like this :*

People use their wifi router ( check hardware + software, and
interoperability ),
their wifi enabled pc or laptop, or their wifi enabled mobile phones,
to enable ad hoc networking,
becoming relay's.

As they participate in the network, they have access to the network.

As they provide bandwidth to the local network, they have access to
bandwidth in the local network BUT they give a certain percentage more of
what they receive to the network,

which makes it possible to the network to "sell" credits to non contributing
people wanting to access the internet.

Thats the business model.

The extra cash is being spent in a not for profit to promote the network,
create partnerships ( with national libraries, universities, schools,
businesses )
increase its usership,
and set up critical nodes in places where the density of existing users is
not high enough.

It can be a combination of MANET ( Mobile Ad Hoc Networks ) and Fixed
routers.

Two existing , different projects :

http://meraki.com/

http://www.fon.com/en/

---

Mesh Networking :

 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networking>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_ad_hoc_network

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ad-hoc_routing_protocols

Also see some of the posts on

http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/could-peernet-be-separate-from

including Sepp's post

http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/mesh-potato-how-to-roll-out

http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/project-spiderweb-a

http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/evernote-cloud-app-for-mobile

More links :

http://delicious.com/deliciousdante/mesh

and related

http://delicious.com/deliciousdante/adhoc

----

**Its an old idea I have been thinking about since I interacted with
reseaucitoyen.be some 8 years ago,
and set up back to date through interacting with Gael.

----------
From: *Alex Rollin* <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 6:00 PM

An wxcellent example of all the concepts we have been discussing.  I will
review your links.

I deployed a Meraki mesh net in the early days of the product.  It was not
easy and that was with a simple protocol ( ie sans currency.)  i hope
research will tell me the situation has improved.

Indeed the mesh net entry on the p2p wiki referenced a lean network,
g-something, that looked quite on top of things.

Alex

----------
From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante at ecobytes.net>
Date: Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 6:28 PM
To: Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
>

oh cool !

I guess you mean... hmm... scanning through the following pages... ( see
below )

and updated the wiki page :
----

   - Mesh Networks <http://Mesh_Networks>
   ... ogy' of the network. There are a number of routing protocols which
   support meshnetworking amongst which [[OLSR]] is one of the most advanced
   and most wid ... ... nections. It is the lack of a hub-and-spoke structure
   that distinguishes a meshnetwork. Meshes do not need designated routers:
   instead, nodes serve as ro ...
   15 KB (2345 words) - 08:04, 13 May 2009
   - Wireless Mesh Networks <http://Wireless_Mesh_Networks>
   '''Wireless Mesh Networks''', '''Wireless mesh networking is mesh networking
   implemented over a Wireless LAN.'''
   5 KB (812 words) - 11:06, 10 March 2008
   - Wi-Mesh Alliance <http://Wi-Mesh_Alliance>
   '''Wi-Mesh Alliance''' URL = http://www.wi-mesh.org/
   654 B (95 words) - 09:52, 26 May 2006
   - Marc Canter on Mesh Networks for
Content<http://Marc_Canter_on_Mesh_Networks_for_Content>
   '''Title: Mesh-Up: Connecting Conent to People''' Written summary at
   http://www.nmk.co.uk/article/2006/07/25/content20-the-mesh
   415 B (56 words) - 08:49, 25 August 2006
   - P2P Mesh Networks <http://P2P_Mesh_Networks>
   ... device to their in home network connection that offers free access to
   the meshnetwork and simultaneously extends the network. Not all
   participants choo ...
   1 KB (180 words) - 23:00, 8 July 2010
   - Open Mesh <http://Open_Mesh>
   ... rk Canter has an extensive investigation of what we need to build the
   open mesh: 1) [
   http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/03/how-to-build-the-mesh-1-id-social-graphs-and-groups
   Layer One], [[Identity]], [[Data Portability ...
   10 KB (1526 words) - 04:19, 17 August 2008
   - Meraki Mesh Networks <http://Meraki_Mesh_Networks>
   ... ipal wi-fi projects'''." [
   http://www.boingboing.net/2008/01/10/meraki-free-mesh-wif.html] "In most
   mesh networks, all the nodes that receive a particular data packet
   8 KB (1288 words) - 20:03, 11 March 2008
   - Open Mesh Networks <http://Open_Mesh_Networks>
   ==Why Open Mesh Networks are beneficial== ... ion, expands the capacity
   of the network. This intelligence is the key to mesh networks’ immense
   capacity.
   2 KB (336 words) - 12:51, 28 December 2007
   - Open Source Mesh <http://Open_Source_Mesh>
   '''= community in favor of [[Open Source Mesh Networking]]''' ... rld now
   have a place to collaborate to create a suite of tools to liberate
Mesh networks
   from proprietary solutions and vendors who's business models focu ...
   1 KB (163 words) - 04:33, 17 August 2008
   - Open Source Mesh Networking <http://Open_Source_Mesh_Networking>
   #[[Open Source Mesh]] #[[Meraki Mesh Networks]]
   134 B (14 words) - 05:10, 2 February 2008
   - Open Mesh Routing Protocols <http://Open_Mesh_Routing_Protocols>
   121 B (13 words) - 05:30, 2 February 2008
   - Marc Canter on the Structural Conditions for Building an Open
Mesh<http://Marc_Canter_on_the_Structural_Conditions_for_Building_an_Open_Mesh>
   ... rk Canter has an extensive investigation of what we need to build the
   open mesh: 1) [
   http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2008/03/how-to-build-the-mesh-1-id-social-graphs-and-groups
   Layer One], [[Identity]], [[Data Portability ...
   6 KB (933 words) - 05:39, 8 July 2008
   - World Wide Mesh <http://World_Wide_Mesh>
   ... o each other via the Internet these meshes come together in one
   world-widemesh. ... m the network-centric model to the peer-to-peer
   model, enabled by wireless mesh technology."
   603 B (77 words) - 02:37, 17 February 2010
   - Mesh Potato <http://Mesh_Potato>
   URL = http://www.villagetelco.org/mesh-potato/mesh-potato-faq/ ... a
   marriage of a low-cost wireless access point ( AP) capable of running a
   mesh networking protocol with an Analog Telephony Adapter ( ATA).
   Wireless AP ...
   1 KB (142 words) - 15:55, 28 May 2010

----------
From: *Sepp Hasslberger* <sepp at lastrega.com>
Date: Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 8:58 PM

Hi Dante,

this seems a good initiative, but I have one question: What is the selling
point?

In other words, what does the currency you propose add to people's
willingness to network and to share.

In my view, many users would be happy to get into a sharing and networking
mode, but they aren't there yet. What they are missing is not so much an
incentive (a currency) but an opportunity. There is no easily available
hardware, and more often than not, there is no one to network with. So how
can that scarcity of opportunity be overcome?

Kind regards
Sepp

p.s. added a cc to Michel, who would no doubt also be interested.

----------
From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante at ecobytes.net>
Date: Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:11 PM

Thanks Sepp.

Good point.
Yes, I have been reading many of your posts on this subject, and I remember
we may have discussed the topic of meshed networks already.

The selling point I believe is not the currency per se,
but the possibility for people to access local and internet communication
beyond their own wifi access point, for no additional cost,
except for a configuration of their router, or wifi enabled mobile phone.

more precisely, it can offer them access to :

1) a distributed local mesh, which enables them to share files or *communicate
locally*,
potentially *also through voice over ip, for free*.
note : As more and more people are likely to have wifi enabled phones,
and as such phones are more and more like little computers, I imagine they
themselves may become a manet ( mobile ) node in the mesh.

2) *have access to the internet in more places* in their neighbourhood and
city,
 *if they themselves provide internet bandwidth to the mesh*

the currency in itself probably being only coming in third position,
as an additional option.

----------
From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante at ecobytes.net>
Date: Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:14 PM

and a fourth , omportant one for me,
one may be a sense of increased local autonomy,
of a bound between people in your neighborhood that is not dependent on
companies anymore,
and potentially even of "identity" ... ? :-)

----------
From: *Sepp Hasslberger* <sepp at lastrega.com>
Date: Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 10:48 PM

Hi Dante,

what you are saying is actually the business model of FON. You install one
of their low-cost wireless modems permitting other "foneros" who happen to
be close by, to use your connection via WiFi, and in exchange you get to use
the connections of others who also have installed a "la fonera" FON modem.
They are making those wireless modems available at a low price, but the
technology is not as advanced as it should be. The reach is definitely too
short to be really useful, and the FON wireless access points don't make a
network, they don't talk to each other. The model of FON is sharing your
connection and getting access in a similar way from others.

Meraki, I believe, is different, in that their modems actually do form an
ad-hoc network by talking to each other. They are also using cheap wireless
modems that extend, to some degree, the area of coverage of one or more
single "real" internet connections to a group of users. Meraki is
commercial, just like FON. They were trying to roll out a network over San
Francisco, but have scaled back their expectations, I believe. None of those
two have really had a great growth or a breakthrough.

There is also an open source Meraki, so to speak, which is, I believe,
called Open Mesh. If I remember correctly, they concentrate on B.A.T.M.A.N.
which is a routing protocol that allows mesh networks to form. They work by
changing the flash memory of certain compatible commercially available
routers.

The big problem, for now, seems to be the lack of a proper hardware platform
to base the network on, that is widely available. That would be the thing to
concentrate on. Meraki and FON have hardware, but their drawback is lack of
wide reach (WiFi goes only about 30 meters distance in good conditions, less
if you have walls to contend with), and the fact that they are commercial,
meaning they would like to have the whole world converge on themselves, and
it doesn't seem to work that way.

Until we have proper hardware to ensure connectivity, that is widely
available and that is open to be configured like we want, there is really no
way people will jump unto the mesh networking scene, if only because there
is a lack of opportunity, i.e. they don't know HOW to do it.

Kind regards
Sepp

----------
From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante at ecobytes.net>
Date: Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 12:29 AM

Exactly Sepp!
A mixture of meraki and fon approaches, although I Ideally imagine that
people could configure their own routers
(if they can add protocols , such as with a linksys router, or unless
partnerships are created with various existing internet providers who offer
a router with their service as to add a mesh protocol)

Or if they can add a module that easily turns their mobile phone or laptop
into a mobile relay node.

Easiest would be to start experimenting on university campuses, including by
enabling the meshed laptops and phones to share files ,potentially using
bittorrent over mesh? With a high density,I wonder if it reduces bottlenecks
and increases file sharing speeds? At the same time increasing the quality
of the reach of connectivity over a campus.

I guess this is where is connects with the one laptop per child project.

It could also be used by students to enable shared processing power of their
devices,over mesh,to support some of their projects. (especially for hungry
for processing tasks? Video editing? )

Eventually processing power over mesh could also warn credits?

Just brainstorming as I m walking back and writing on my phone...

What motivates me most,personally,is to have an.emergent autonomous local
mesh,which can guarantee autonomy of control from governments and internet
providers for local data exchanges,and serve as backbone for local
information systems that support local economics.

Perhaps there can be a mobile mesh protocol that can be proposed to run with
various mobile applications.

Perhaps that one way of doing it,in a granular and emergent way... ?

In that case,where does one start?

Using open hardware and old pc' to contribute to existing meshes, and find
existing tools to easily enable compatibility between Batman and mobile mesh
protocols,

Using an easy to install module for android and iPhone's?

...

I guess its still a dream...
Perhaps the time is not ripe yet?

Still need to wait till 10 dollar open hardware ,with wifi and pre installed
(and configurable) open source software enabling mesh protocols?

Or is the current 30 to 50 dollar node making it viable in high density
areas,especially if some form of revenue can be created?

Just thinking loud up late at night ,after a small sip :)

Perhaps easiest to start by investing in our own mesh of routers... starting
with the meraki approach... building on existing communities of local mesh
enthusiasts...

Hi Dante,

> Yes, I h...

----------
From: *Alex Rollin* <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 6:50 AM
Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org>

A couple points:

   1. The connections to the internet are not *free* because "access points"
   are assumed to be connected to the www, which requires someone to pay.
   2. The currency might be great for enabling those who offer an "access
   point" credit for use on other "access points"
   3. Most "organized" mesh nets do not encourage a charge of any kind for
   roaming users.  Example: http://guifi.net/directori .  This might just be
   a new class of networks, though.  See FreeTheNet below, which does charge as
   a cooperative.
   4. An alternative currency for access is great, and innovative, but
   exchanging that currency for "cash" may not be desirable as it is not
   standard procedure for mesh nets.  Good idea, though.  It needs to be a
   platform, though.  A platform should be usable, copyable, and extendable.
    Hypothetically, extensions should be usable by others on the platform
   copies.  Walk away complete is the tag line.
   5. Most protocols that happen over the internet can happen between
   machines and a configuration package for local services discovery could be
   very interesting.  Usually local networks are useless except for file
   sharing, and the services are less than ideal in many cases.
   6. The local package for service discovery could be handled/built in a
   way that was "network ambivalant", as a package that worked on the internet
   or a local network.  Example: keeping a list of media files you are looking
   for and using a collection of programs that search here or there to find you
   sources.
   7. OLPC already does mesh networking in a way significantly similar to
   what you describe http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Mesh_Network_Details .  This
   is not typical for the configuration of wireless network cards in machines,
   though it is possible (for some part, at least)
   8. The Meraki company made a mistake and raised the price of their
   hardware so Open-Mesh took over the "higher purpose" of providing BATMAN and
   ROBIN pre-flashed nodes and extenders
   https://www.open-mesh.com/store/categories.php?category=Lowest%252dCost-Mesh
.  FreeTheNet uses Accton routers from OpenMesh, see below.
   9. Changing settings to allow and encourage local services discovery can
   be dangerous.  As a networking professional I will say that 95% of people
   are using default settings on their machine, and these make it almost
   impossible to easily discover local services with changing configurations,
   and that is potentially dangerous.  No more dangerous than using the
   internet, I suppose, but the exploits don't come through the browser,
   necessarily.  See the wifi iphone hack.  The issue is perhaps only different
   in that local network bandwidth is much higher, and so a hole in security
   can be exploited very quickly with big packages.
   http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/23/technology/23iphone.html
   10. You don't need to do anything new to accomplish your vision of
   extending the range of a local network across your city.  Just copy what
   http://guifi.net/directori is doing and use Open-Mesh routers.  It's
   getting easier, apparently.  I worked on http://freethenet.ca/ in 2007
   when it was just some guys hacking hardware and figuring out the business
   model.  It was a pain because the first Meraki products were just coming out
   and the team had to write and rewrite the code for the coordinated uplink,
   which allowed the routers to be flashed remotely.  Now it's a coop.  Yay!
    So you can copy them too!  Check out their bylaws here:
   http://www.vonic.ca/about FreeTheNet and Vonic use a custom DogOnRails
   app for network management, under development in a different form during my
   time.  This is for tracking memberships, I am sure, over the network and
   between access points.  It's also needed because the FreeTheNet model
   through Vonic calls for underwriting extending mesh deep into residential
   areas to supply home connections over a shared network.  A special purpose
   monitoring and optimization software is useful for that kind of thing.
   11. You won't escape governance and I don't know how to conceive of a
   local mesh in such a way.  It still uses hardware made by the machine, and
   it still has to connect to the www, at least for now, through ISP
   connections.  Someone has to pay for that.  Using local mesh for file
   traffic several limits what files are available.  It would take a small city
   to duplicate the power of a Google server farm used to cache partial copies
   of the internet, and that farm would be optimized for the task, unlike a
   city-res-mesh.

Alex
http://alexrollin.com
http://p2pfoundation.net/User:GoodRollin

----------
From: *Gael Van Weyenbergh* <stroombank at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:45 PM
To: Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org>

The simplest way I see this is to apply the couch surfing model to the
sharing of internet connections. Then there is maybe no need for a currency
and the risk of abuse can be reduced by mutual good practices as
participating members are equally vulnerable. In fact, my underlying concern
is to avoid being totally dependent on regular ISPs. The development of a
parallel mesh of interconnected mobile devices sounds more appealing. It
could be used at a city-level for file sharing, grid computing or as a place
where needs can match offers with the exchange of community currencies.

Gael
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