[p2p-research] Who Issues the Money that National Governments then Borrow?

Sun Jul 18 16:30:16 CEST 2010

all money is not already p2p, Ryan, it is in fact the very contrary

it is issued either by centralized governments, or by private banks, not by
peers, under conditions of scarcity and compound interest, one of the major
forces creating infinite growth and destroying the planet; the current money
is pretty much the anti-thesis of p2p as it excludes a vast majority of the
world population from productive activity, while funneling proceeds from the
poor to the rich through the rent attached to debt ... It is the
financialization of the economy which is now the major drain on the
productive economy, making the current debt system a very destructive force

people should therefore be cautious about debt, and be much more literate
about its dangers and consequences

only then is debt, as an investment in future activities, a positive forces,
as a pooling of money for productive purposes

as ellen woods argues, there is no need to be into debt when you can
directly created the funding needed for productive investments ..

the solutions outlined in the book that started this discussion, is not
entirely unconditional, it associated the basic income with a duty to
sending children to school etc .. like microfinance, but so much more
efficiently than microfinance, it directly jumpstarts and bootstraps the
productive capacity of the poor, and this is why these schemes have been
instrumental both in dramatic reductions of poverty in Venezuela and BRazil,
with the associated high economic growth figures

Also, the conclusions of that book seemed to be the opposite of what you
suggest, it is the evidence is that it did not lead people to consume in
perverse ways,

by the way that is precisely what your high debt system does, most money
that goes into existence, 98% of it I believe, is now used for
non-productive activities, a small part into consumption by people who could
not afford it, and the larger part to speculative activities akin to
gambling; this surplus money is one of the key drivers of the current crisis

I cannot see how you can equate bitcoin with a high tax system, that logic
escapes me?

Also there are many activities and contributions that are productive but are
not valued in economic terms. Think of art, volunteering for cleaning up the
oil spill, or open source development.

Michel

On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>  On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 6:26 AM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Michel Bauwens wrote:
>> > there is nothing wrong per se in creating money out of thin air
>> > as long as it is matched by productive activities,
>>
>> That may be true.  But that is not what I am asking.
>>
>> My question is *WHO* should create the Money.
>>
>>
> Everyone should who aims to be productive.  It is easy to do.  Simply
> borrow, and money is created.  Those who fear debt are those who cannot make
> sound economic decisions.
>
>
>
>
>> For example, let's say we invented a new P2P Money that began to be
>> popular enough that it could realistically be used as a medium of
>> exchange.
>>
>>
> All money is already P2P.
>
>
>> Now imagine this new Money was designed to be "declared into
>> existence" in limited amounts by each peer...  By the way, I think
>> this is how BitCoin works.
>>
>>
> This is simply a high tax scheme.  It is nothing new.  Tax everyone a high
> rate, and it is roughly the same as issuing everyone a same amount.
>
>
>
>
>> My question then becomes: Under what conditions would a peer choose to
>> NOT issue his allotted amount for the year?
>>
>> I can see peers might borrow from each other AFTER they have already
>> reached their issuance limit, but why would they choose to forgo
>> issuing the initial amount they were allowed?
>>
>>
>>
> Money is a machine.  Those who chose not to use it productively...are like
> any person who owns a resource (e.g. a computer or some land) who chooses to
> not use it productively.  Productivity is giving people want they want.  It
> doesn't have to be for the highest price...it can be set up in all sorts of
> ways.
>
>
>
>
>> I just noticed this sounds alot like the Basic Income idea.  Each
>> citizen is *given* a certain amount of Money each year.
>>
>>
> Basic income is fine.  I actually like the idea.  It should be an amount
> that is only delivered if people don't reproduce, pollute, or extensively
> use public services that are paid for by tax payers.  Money for nothing is a
> pretty sure way to achieve very inefficient economies.  People consume in
> perverse ways.  Rights without responsibilities are impossible.
>
>
>
>
>> If this system were in place, would any of us choose to NOT accept
>> that handout in favor of instead trying to get a loan from someone
>> else?
>>
>
> Any person who believes part of their human dignity is to be a productive
> and worthwhile person based on contribution to society by means that are
> valued in economic terms.
>
>
>
>>
>> Assuming it is better to get the loan, what are the benefits to
>> entering into debt as opposed to remaining solvent?
>>
>>
>>
> Debt creates incentives that push people to perform.  It is like a test in
> a school.  Such incentives nearly always work well.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Sincerely,
>> Patrick Anderson
>> Social Sufficiency Coalition
>> http://SourceFreedom.BlogSpot.com <http://sourcefreedom.blogspot.com/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>
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