[p2p-research] Who Issues the Money that National Governments then Borrow?

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Hi... I m chipping in, in between your lines...

On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 6:26 AM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Michel Bauwens wrote:
>> > there is nothing wrong per se in creating money out of thin air
>> > as long as it is matched by productive activities,
>>
>> That may be true.  But that is not what I am asking.
>>
>> My question is *WHO* should create the Money.
>>
>>
> Everyone should who aims to be productive.  It is easy to do.  Simply
> borrow, and money is created.  Those who fear debt are those who cannot make
> sound economic decisions.
>

fear debt, or fear interest ?
does everyone have access to borrowing ?
is our system based on a need for an exponential growth of debt ?
is such exponential growth of debt in need for exponential growth of the
economy ?
is an exponential growth of the economy sustainable, or even realistic ?
if everyone creates debt, and if some can capture such debt better then
others ( including through creating monopolies ), do the ones that can not
come out of debt become slaves ?



>
>
>
>> For example, let's say we invented a new P2P Money that began to be
>> popular enough that it could realistically be used as a medium of
>> exchange.
>>
>>
> All money is already P2P.
>

Hi Ryan, saying that "all money is already P2P" may not be entirely true,
depending on what you mean.

>From my current point of view,
Money ( I mean, the current monetary architecture, considered as "legal
tender" )
*as "usage"* may be P2P ( *and only for those who can have access to it* -
and even for those who have access to it but can not accumulate it, in the
current system, through interest and pareto effects, cumulated effect may be
more like a "Exploited2Exploiter" machine )

but NOT money as creation,
as there currently is a private banking monopoly on the creation of money
through debt,
and inequalities to access to money/credit, hence not "peers"

In relation to access to credit and its relation to collateral, it may also
be of interest to find out more about leverage in relation to liability, in
relation to collateral,
and, from my point of view, also seriously reconsider the role and impact of
interest.

It might also be of interest to understand the difference between debt and
interest, as money :

All money created through debt needs to be repaid, but the money paid in
interest on such debt does not seem to need to be repaid, hence , from my
point of view, may participate in the increase of the monetary mass, as it
does not need to dissolve itself, as with debt. Better still, it can be used
as guarantee ( with a 10 to 1 leverage ? ) to issue more debt... on which
there can be interest. - I d like to find out more materials/reference about
this, if you know of any.



>
>
>> Now imagine this new Money was designed to be "declared into
>> existence" in limited amounts by each peer...  By the way, I think
>> this is how BitCoin works.
>>
>>
> This is simply a high tax scheme.  It is nothing new.  Tax everyone a high
> rate, and it is roughly the same as issuing everyone a same amount.
>

Hmm... Really ... Ryan, you say "this is simply a tax scheme"?
Lets then ask : What if there is no money issued, can you still tax people?

Furthermore, in addition to "repayment of debt" ( with or without interest ?
),
it may be of interest to understand other approaches,
such as "demurrage" ( loss of value of units over time - loss of value
relative to every unit based on its own creation / it is not merely broad
inflation or debasement - , which could be chosen to apply especially when
they are hoarded from exchanges )

To use the example cited related to declaring money into existence by each
peer ( such as bitcoin, and possibly as a form of basic income ? ),
I could very well imagine a system "WITHOUT DEBT", where every citizen gets
a right to a "basic income" issued... between each other... on which units
loose value over time...

I guess one other big questions is:

"what is the relation chosen between property, power and money" ... and this
question includes the recent housing market crash... and the increase of the
total money supply based on housing speculation.

another question may be:

what is the relation between a "reserve currency" ( when everyone needs to
buy dollars, to buy natural resources ) and the capacity to issue currency,
potentially beyond its own collateral ?
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