[p2p-research] P2P Foundation page Category:Commons has been changed by Mbauwens

Michel Bauwens michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Fri Jul 16 17:36:47 CEST 2010 

different folks, different strokes,

again to repeat as this was a concrete case:

1) the transclusion in policy referred to 3 same links in one and a half
line

2) something got wrong in the subhierarchy so that subsection that belonged
to a former subsection turned out in a next unrelated section

3) the title was inconsistent with 2 other titles in the same subheading
category, etc...

so, logically, I wanted to change it, but in the case of transclusion, 1) I
have to check the manual 2) make sure changes are compatible in different
sections with different subheading hierarchies ... in other words, I have to
spent 30 minutes instead of 30 seconds, with no guarantee of success ...
some people like to do this, I have other fish to fry, again, different
folks, different strokes, don't impose unitary solutions to diverse people
and diverse page and category contexts ..

it is true that categories could be much improved and that the large amount
of content makes it difficult to digest,

but one-size fits all transclusion doesn't even begin to address this issue
... it's not related ...

a much more elegant solution was devised by our good friend nathan, i.e.
double columns, a simple solution that gives a much easier overview look ...

there might be other solutions, but it's not transclusion ... I'm open to
discussion solutions with you and other people as that would really improve
user-friendliness

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> They are not obligatory.  You can always undo them, but why?  The
> product is better!  And you can organize it more easily.  The page is
> easier to edit.  Layout.  Better.  And you can build all kind of
> perspectives into the source content.
>
> I think category pages are terrible places to write content.
> Terrible.  Put it in the topic page.  If you get over 2 screens long,
> break it up again into more page and specific topics.
>
> The site already loads 200+ links for the main 15 category pages.  The
> content haul on top of it keeps people from ever scrolling to the
> bottom.
>
> And the formatting is ugly.  It's Mediawiki.  They all look the same,
> but the longer the page the more formatting there is.
>
> No transclusion need be decontextualized.  Especially when you can
> edit them yourself.  Which is easy.
>
> A
>
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > no pages are my pages ...
> >
> > but special care should be taken with the integrity of category intro
> pages,
> > which are built over a long time
> >
> > again to repeat, I have nothing against transclusions, but they should
> not
> > be obligatory and decontextualized ..
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Is every page your page?  Surely not.  So, you preclude the use of
> >> anything you don't understand on every page you might touch?  That's
> >> ridiculous and you know it.  It's not even your writing we are talking
> >> about, but a contribution from another user that I spoke to about the
> >> changes.  Your argument is fallacious.
> >>
> >> A
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > sorry alex,
> >> >
> >> > but if one of you had simply said, we edited that page back, the
> >> > discussion
> >> > would not arisen ...
> >> >
> >> > I check wiki edits once a day in bloglines, today especially twice,
> and
> >> > have
> >> > not seen the un-redirects of those pages,
> >> >
> >> > as for the transclusion, again, since you only did it for one section
> >> > where
> >> > it did not show a dysfunctionality in the new version, I just let it
> >> > there,
> >> >
> >> > but the general principle remains, are features freedoms and
> >> > opportunities,
> >> > or imposed technocratic solutions which take more time and energy, and
> >> > exclude non-geeks from more participation ...
> >> >
> >> > you think it "not a concern", but as you can witness, it is clearly a
> >> > concern to me if you impose me to check on manuals to do simple edits
> in
> >> > a
> >> > page, so again: it IS a concern, not if it is free, but when it is
> >> > obligatory,
> >> >
> >> > especially, I don't know why anyone in a p2p wiki would have the sole
> >> > power
> >> > to impose the use of a particular technique, without discussion, we
> have
> >> > norms and rules concerning civility, a requirement concerning the
> >> > quality of
> >> > content, but so far, no obliged technical rules,
> >> >
> >> > again, I'm against imposing these unilaterally they should just be
> >> > options
> >> > that people can use or not,
> >> >
> >> > those that like manuals, by all means check them out and improve the
> >> > wiki
> >> > with superior technical wizardry, but do not change the content so
> that
> >> > changes start requiring knowledge of that wizardry,
> >> >
> >> > this seems common sense to me ...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:45 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > when an entry page is forced into a loop in a category page, no
> >> >> > editing
> >> >> > whatsoever is possible ...
> >> >>
> >> >> This is patently not true Michel.   That page was edited.  Case
> >> >> closed.  It is a non-optimal practice anyways, and was willingly
> >> >> changed by Patrick once he saw the situation.  No one is defending
> the
> >> >> practice, merely explaining why it was attempted and how to fix it.
> >> >> You are the one interpreting as otherwise.
> >> >>
> >> >> As far as the Greyson material goes, on the edits I was correcting,
> >> >> when I first inserted the template, the text, except for the section
> >> >> headings was the same.  You can check the edit history if you like.
> >> >> You are over reacting about imposition.  I decided how to handle it.
> >> >> I fixed it for you.  I showed you how to fix it.  You can do it next
> >> >> time if you want to.  You can change it back.  I could edit it again.
> >> >> It's a wiki, you know?  The point is I'm not trying to 'NOT' put what
> >> >> you want on the Category page; I'm just doing it a little
> differently.
> >> >>  And contextually...more contextually, if you ask me.
> >> >>
> >> >> This practice of transclusion works for what is intended, even in
> this
> >> >> flare up as you struggle to understand how to use the new technology.
> >> >> I do defend the practice.  You will see more of it, in addition to
> the
> >> >> several examples I have sent to you in the last week.  Transclusion
> is
> >> >> useful.  If you read the LST and P2PStack Architecture document you
> >> >> will see that I even wrote down how contextual quotes are handled, as
> >> >> separate sections.  I didn't invent this.  The basic functionality
> >> >> comes with Mediawiki.  I think that means it is, you know, a wiki
> >> >> function.
> >> >>
> >> >> Here's a use case.  If you are writing something "about" James
> >> >> Greyson's 7 Switches, don't you think it would be neat if, since he
> >> >> only watches 2 pages, his user page and the 7 Switches page, that you
> >> >> could write your contextual piece "7 Switches and P2P Policy" within
> >> >> 'his' 7 Switches page?  Then he gets notified, can correct it, and
> >> >> work with you.  It's super cool, and better than the way you do it.
> >> >> All the 7 Switches stuff is all in one place, but can be used
> >> >> anywhere.  That's why it works.  I know a user has to learn a few new
> >> >> tags to use it, but, so what, not everyone is writing gigantic pages
> >> >> like us, so it just doesn't effect that many people, and really isn't
> >> >> a concern.
> >> >>
> >> >> A
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
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> >> >
> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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> >> >
> >> > Think tank:
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
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> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> > Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
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