[p2p-research] problems with the wiki

Fri Jul 16 15:25:53 CEST 2010

Alex,

I'm only defensive, because, instead of just listening to users and authors
of the wiki, you want to impose your solutions, which may be appropriate for
some users, not for others. Features should be just that, opportunites and
new freedoms,

I have to be clear in defending the integrity of the content, because, from
experience, you do not "hear" easily otherwise,

you do not have to ask permission, but you can't impose ...

I tried to edit the public property page, and could not, so I ask patrick to
undo it, it's not complicated

same in the case of the transclusion, I don't want to use this transclusion
in a particular category, you re-instate and want to impose it, and even
announce a vision of the wiki  that I find horrifying ... a vision which you
have never discussed with anybody,

I didn't insult anybody, nor made any personal attacks, read again, but
faced with defensiveness and a restriction of the freedom to edit, I had to
push back,

I did not see any phrase in the previous correspondence where you offered to
repair or make good, only defenses that your solution was the proper one,
that I should follow it, and in case of problems, spent time with the manual

Michel

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> What you have written is incendiary and not even integrative.  It is
> defensive, offensive, and shows a total lack of appreciation, trust
> and respect.
>
> I am sorry if you find my comments the same.  Mine are meant to offer
> help and pointers, and I indeed make good by offering to repair things
> for you.  This seems important because you are not showing any
> interest in learning about the tools that are available with Mediawiki
> to make our lives here easier.  Your use of category pages has
> inherent complications, and the solutions are meant to be a way out of
> that.
>
> Again, apologies if you find my offering less than adequate, but your
> responses are totally inappropriate.
>
> If there was no way to restore a page for you, then Patrick could not
> do it, but he has.  He has the same login a new user off the street
> has, as a matter of fact.  Is that Spam?
>
> Please keep these discussion on the wiki, Michel.  That is what it is
> for.  That is the appropriate venue.  Your flaming here is not
> helpful.
>
> Alex
>
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Michel Bauwens
>  <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Alex,
> >
> > we have a TOTALLY different approach on this ...
> >
> > in the commons and policy section, the new form contained 3 times a link
> to
> > the same adress, and to change it, you can't get to it from the edit
> page,
> > and as you say, I have to consult the manual, but as any marketeer knows,
> > the absolute majority of people are not geeks and do not care to read a
> > manual for every thing they do,
> >
> > so why don't you concentrate on changes that make it easier for people,
> > rather than more complicated, and leave the manuals for the geeks who
> like
> > this sort of thing ...
> >
> > previously, the wiki operated witnout any necessity to consult any manual
> > EVER, I never looked at it, and yet, 13 million pages were viewed ...
> >
> > apart from the commons and policy sections examples,
> >
> > for my note to patrick, see Public Property and Municipally Owned ... you
> > end up in a loop, and can't edit those pages ... don't confuse pages and
> > categories, they have different purposes, categories are meant to link
> > entries, not replace them or prohibit development of pages ...
> >
> > Patrick can achieve the same effect of leading people to his new section
> by
> > simply adding a category tag ...
> >
> > what if I want to put Public Property in another category, such as
> > Peerproperty or the Commons, again, I can't, and it's imperialistic (I
> don't
> > think this was patrick's intent, it's just the effect) for a category
> owner
> > to take owernship of entries to the exclusion of others, it diminishes
> the
> > diversity of the knowledge commons ...
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Can you point to an example page, for each Michel?
> >>
> >> If you are referring to the template I use on the Commons page then
> >> you can read the instructions at
> >> http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Foundation_Wiki_LST for editing them.
> >> You will need to edit the intro on the linked page if that's where the
> >> problem lies.
> >>
> >> Though it may take a bit of reading and experimenting, it would be
> >> poorer form to avoid this, I think, at this point.  The maintenance of
> >> the long category pages is too difficult at this point to overlook
> >> some systematic way of including content.  I have been in rather
> >> constant communication with James Greyson regarding his posting on the
> >> wiki, and was just reading another mail from him.  I instructed a new
> >> user in the LST formatting yesterday.  It's possible and I think
> >> preferrable to use this for 'traversal' pages like a category page.
> >>
> >> On that note I created the p2p group on wiser earth, following James'
> >> lead.  http://www.wiserearth.org/group/p2p
> >>
> >> On this note: http://p2pfoundation.net/Government_Owned
> >>
> >> Please see the talk page.  I advised Patrick on his work here,
> >> already.  Feel free to leave your notes there as well.
> >>
> >> This systematic fashion I reference applies to what Patrick is doing,
> >> too.  He sees a need to collect these articles in one place for now,
> >> even though the category system appropriate is rather complex.  He has
> >> taken the liberty of creating a set of categories and pages that all
> >> point to category:government owned.  This is useful because everything
> >> ends up in one place and you can still add the subcategories.
> >>
> >> You can still edit the redirect pages and take them out of the loop as
> >> appropriate.  We'll all see the edits, too.  There is no prohibition
> >> on that.  You just click on the one you want, then click on the link
> >> next to 'redirected from' which will take you to the original.  You
> >> can then remove the redirect and edit as needed.
> >>
> >> When complex issues like this come up I just wonder if instead of
> >> trying to roll-back, we could perhaps figure out ways to work together
> >> with the solution or work on an alternative solution.
> >>
> >> It could be that we are going in the wrong direction and instead need
> >> to take the approach of general civic networks.  A project might say
> >> it is citizen owned, but the peer relationship is a bit more
> >> complicated since obviously not all citizens everywhere are members.
> >> The nature, boundary, and quality of the agreement and relationship is
> >> what is interesting.  Just a thought.
> >>
> >> http://p2pfoundation.net/Government_Owned
> >>
> >> Alex
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Michel Bauwens
> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > I've noticed a number pf problems,
> >> >
> >> > Patrick, you have created a number of loops which prevent people to
> >> > create
> >> > independent entries,
> >> >
> >> > for example, because you redirect individual pages to categories, this
> >> > means
> >> > I can't create pages on public property nor on municipally owned, can
> >> > you
> >> > restore their independent existence and just add a category, rather
> than
> >> > replacing individual entries ..
> >> >
> >> > as a general rule, I would prefer not to create countless empty stubs
> >> > and
> >> > empty pages and links ...
> >> >
> >> > Alex,
> >> >
> >> > blindspotter has replaced some material and categories with technical
> >> > formula's you can't change without specific expertise, I would really
> >> > want
> >> > to avoid that ...
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >
> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >
> >> > Think tank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> > Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
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