[p2p-research] The problems of debt

Tue Jul 13 15:56:16 CEST 2010

thanks for that precision!

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Michel,
>
> I did not say that those who earn the most are the most productive.
> Indeed, I said that societies that do not pay those who are most productive
> the most reward are those in the most danger.
>
> You'll get little argument from me that most making millions from
> footballers to rock stars to CEOs are typically not the most productive
> people.  That said, high wages now tend to go to those who satisfy
> consumption...not those that aid productivity.  CEOs are an exception.  I've
> seen some brilliant managers worth every dime of their millions.  I've seen
> others who are fools.
>
> Personally, I've got no problem with great wealth.  I do expect great
> output from those persons.  When great wealth is attained without great
> output (e.g. through inheritance) societies are hurt.
>
> R.
>
>   On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:12 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> this is of course very questionable ...
>>
>> put capitalists in a room, and they are tremendously unproductive, they
>> are only productive because workers are productive, but you could argue,
>> that the organisation of production is a form of productivity ... yet most
>> of that done is not done by capitalists but by a paid managerial class ...
>>
>> also, as we now know, the most well-paid were actually destroying the most
>> value (there is a study of the NEF on that ... .. the added value of
>> capitalists and financiers is actually negative)
>>
>> so your statement that in capitalism, the more value you create, the more
>> you consume, is a nice piece of mythology, but unwarranted and disproven ..
>>
>> you also discount social movements ... the Nordic countries have very
>> strong labour and social movements, could this be an explanation, rather
>> than mysterious goodness, that explains their social system,
>>
>> and is it a coincidence that the best-paid workers in the world, i.e. the
>> Koreans, also have the strongest unions?
>>
>> following your reasoning, the top 1% of the population mysteriously
>> created lots and lots more value ... yet, growth rates declined dramatically
>> since the 1980's
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>   On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 10:58 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>  In the past and present, people of enormous productivity (e.g.
>>> capitalists) consumed significantly in a way that others see as wasteful.
>>> Indeed it is.  But they view this as a reward for their huge productivity.
>>> Measuring productivity and value creation is hard.  No one knows exactly how
>>> to do it.  But we do know that people will argue that their capacity for
>>> value creation is greater than it might actually be.  In other words, people
>>> negotiate for their own benefit rather than society's.  If society does a
>>> bad job at evaluating value of productivity, systems become very
>>> inefficient, and the machines of society too often produce stuff people
>>> don't want as much as they could have if the machines had been used
>>> efficiently.
>>>
>>> In capitalism, the more value you create.  The more you get to consume.
>>> In any other system, immediate imbalances are inevitable.  The only possible
>>> non capitalist system that can work, in my view, is one where moral
>>> responsibility to the society is a sort of currency...as in Nordic
>>> countries.  In those places, value producers subordinate their own desires
>>> to those of others.  Why?  Who can say.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Money is, in simplest terms, a machine.
>>>>
>>>> It isn't like a machine.  It IS a machine.  It is a machine that either
>>>> makes something others want (value) or it is a machine that makes things
>>>> only a consumer wants (i.e. consumption).
>>>>
>>>> If it makes consumption, it is used up.  If money makes value, like all
>>>> machines that can be used more than once, it is a value multiplier.
>>>>
>>>> If someone uses money to create value, then they are productive.
>>>> Productivity leads to happier worlds because people have things others
>>>> want.  In an eastern-styled anti-desire world, these systems do not
>>>> apply...though there is ample evidence, given free choice, nearly everyone
>>>> wants something that is scarce.  Wanting fewer things that are scarce is a
>>>> sort of advantage in this new world, but it is a choice most would not want
>>>> to make freely.  People like cars, tools, luxuries of all sorts...jewelry,
>>>> prettier mates, etc.  These things cost machinery...money to produce.  If
>>>> they don't create further value...then that is consumption.  Non productive
>>>> consumption burns up capital.  It is a fire in the machine shop.  Granted,
>>>> it is a necessary fire, but it is a fire none-the-less.
>>>>
>>>> Build a good machine...and value is created.  Build a worthless life or
>>>> machine, and value is consumed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've been asked to explain debt problems as influenced by technology.
>>>>> I'll try.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my "theory".  Many others share or have versions of something
>>>>> similar.  I claim no originality.  I've posted several versions on this
>>>>> list.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Growth occurs when someone produces something others value.  The sum
>>>>> total of value is the economy.
>>>>> 2. In the past, it was a matter of work and labour to produce something
>>>>> of value...like digging a hole where a hole was wanted.
>>>>> 3. People learned to take money that was not in use and to use it by
>>>>> borrowing it and then buying value-production which was then placed on sale.
>>>>> 4. The process of 3 entails risk.  Risk was rewarded by profit.
>>>>> 5. The system of 3-4 really works quite well so long as profit is
>>>>> likely.
>>>>> 6. In a world where learning and high productive machinery requiring
>>>>> low skill levels is readily available (i.e. post 1990 or so) making profit
>>>>> is harder.  7. Item 6 is especially true if innovation is not protected by
>>>>> the state (e.g. through intellectual property.)
>>>>> 8. Because profit is harder especially in tangible goods and services
>>>>> (because of technology and learning distribution) credit is harder.
>>>>> 9. When credit became hard, the incentives to cheat increased.  People
>>>>> lent money badly and then cleverly sold the bad loans to others who didn't
>>>>> understand.
>>>>> 10. When 9 happened, the state had to decide whether huge firms
>>>>> fulfilling important institutional roles would die, or be saved.
>>>>> 11. Nearly all states, especially in Japan and Europe, chose to save
>>>>> old institutions (e.g. Royal Bank of Scotland), or in the US, AIG.
>>>>> 12. There is now an open question as to whether markets can still
>>>>> create value (e.g. the iPod) in such a way that debt is justified.  If not,
>>>>> capitialism in the form that creates ready growth through using unused money
>>>>> is screwed.
>>>>> 13. When money goes unused, it is difficult to create new money and
>>>>> growth of value.  There is no/little incentive to innovate.  This can be
>>>>> called "deflation."
>>>>> 14. Deflation is more dangerous to capitalism by far than inflation.
>>>>> Deflation means shrinkage of an economy because unused money becomes more
>>>>> valuable by sitting than by being used.  Thus, people become even more risk
>>>>> averse.
>>>>> 15. When 14 happens for a long time (e.g. Japan) then demographic and
>>>>> institutional patterns start to become unsustainable.
>>>>> 16. When 15 happens, we do not understand the long term outcomes, but
>>>>> they don't seem good.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>>>> P.O. Box 633
>>>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>>>> Cayman Islands
>>>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>>> P.O. Box 633
>>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>>> Cayman Islands
>>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan Lanham
>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>> P.O. Box 633
>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>> Cayman Islands
>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>
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