[p2p-research] What comes next?

Tue Jul 13 00:17:33 CEST 2010

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> I missed something here, though.  What is it about Capitalism that
> "can't be replaced"?
>
>
It is hugely unlikely that gross output per person under any other system
will come close to approaching capitalism.  If you like wealth (I do) then
you will find that sad.

> It must be something unique.  Surely, though, this can't be the
> concept of the 'market'?
>
>
What makes capitalism extremely efficient is incentive.  People respond
psychologically and biologically to incentives.  Capitalism is good at
offering them so that people try very hard to overcome risk.

> I struggle with these high level discussions in ways similar to others.
>
> One of the things that I like about 'starting from P2P' is going
> through a process of imagining how we might, for example, re-invent
> capitalism, using p2p theory assumptions.
>
>
P2P isn't capitalism or socialism.  It is a technology and an ethos.  Not an
economic system.  It is a technology in that it allows people to share
through various mechanisms that are tried and tested for moving value in
networks without high transaction costs and with low information acquisition
costs.  It is an ethos in that it advocates shared facilities to overcome
the costs of individual capital control.

> Anyone is invited to engage in this type of behavior on the P2P
> Foundation wiki, mind you.   Registrations have been opened again!
>
> There's a set of categories for this type of original writing, also:
> http://p2pfoundation.net/P2PStack
>
> It's not complete, and doesn't try to eclipse the amount of writing on
> capitalism.  This is another step in bringing up P2P theory to meet
> the needs of people just learning about it, trying to apply it, or
> perhaps even trying to arrange relationships between p2p networks.
>
> Anyways, it's always my hope in this discussions to pull out a few
> nuggets or crux points.
>
> So, what does it look like to try and build the best successful
> dynamics out of p2p theory?
>
>
This is pure P2P.  It is also altruism.  Altruism is hard to understand but
it appears to have many biological and psychological underpinnings.   P2P
involves expanding commons and making them better.  Why and how people do
that remain interesting questions, IMO.

> A
>
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > You are very likely in the top 20% of wealthy humans if any of the
> following
> > are true:
> >
> > 1. You've ever flown in an airplane.
> > 2. You've ever owned a car or motorcycle.
> > 3. You've ever owned an apartment or a plot of ground with freehold and
> > clear legal rights.
> > 4. You've eaten more than 1800 calories a day most days of your life.
> >
> > There are now 6.7 billion of us.  10% is 670 million.  20% is 1.34
> billion.
> > In my work, I regularly discuss quintiles.  In education, it is a given
> that
> > the top 20% of performers (nearly however measured) do very well in their
> > societies.  In the US or Europe, they go to college, etc.  The second 20%
> > get technical degrees or become skilled labor.  Of course some people who
> do
> > those things are in the top 20% or in lower quintiles.  These are crude
> > measures.  But they are real.
> >
> > The bottom 20% are nearly always associated either with social welfare
> > systems, mental health systems, or prisons (often all three.)
> >
> > That is why I have tried to focus on the 3rd and 4th quintiles...those
> who
> > will make or break society by either falling into the lot of the bottom
> 20%
> > or who can equal the 2nd quintile.  In Nordic countries, success is
> > basically that the top 20% are equal to the best of the world, but the
> > middle two quintiles are not only closer to the top, they are far from
> the
> > bottom...which, by the way, is pretty sucky even in Nordic countries.
> >
> > In India, the bottom 85% live sucky lives for the most part that none of
> us
> > would want for our friends or children much less ourselves.  The top 2%
> live
> > like the US or Sweden.  The 3rd to the 15% percentile quickly descend
> into a
> > lousy life.
> >
> > It's all about the quintiles.  Show me the cut points for each quintile
> and
> > the global level of the top quintile, and I'll tell you what your society
> is
> > like.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree past injustices suck.  So do today's injustices.  I want to help
> >> people get what they want...things they value...which is growth.  I
> don't
> >> know what else can lead to sustainable resolution.
> >>
> >> The simple truth is that capitalism has succeeded for more people in a
> >> broader way than anything else.  There's just no reasonable argument
> >> contra.  Has it also destroyed people, created injustice, etc.  Of
> course it
> >> has.  No reasonable person denies that.  The question is, do you throw
> the
> >> baby out with the bathwater?
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 10:49 AM, j.martin.pedersen
> >> <m.pedersen at lancaster.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 12/07/10 16:24, Daniel Araya wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > 1. I believe free market capitalism has largely proved the happiest
> >>> > time for humans by far.
> >>>
> >>> Yeah, fuck the 16 million Africans that laid the foundation for it.
> They
> >>> don't count. Fuck the commoners, whose livelihoods were destroyed.
> >>> Nevermind them. Fuck the forests that were and still are cut down. Fuck
> >>> the 90% of the Americas' population. Fuck the indigenous still
> suffering
> >>> today, such as the Hoarani of whom 10% remain since oil - that liquid
> >>> that fuel your illusions of happiness - was discovered in their
> >>> territory 30-35 years ago. And so on. This statement spells racism.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> p2presearch mailing list
> >>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ryan Lanham
> >> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> >> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> >> P.O. Box 633
> >> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> >> Cayman Islands
> >> (345) 916-1712
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ryan Lanham
> > rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> > Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> > P.O. Box 633
> > Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> > Cayman Islands
> > (345) 916-1712
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > p2presearch mailing list
> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

-- 
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
P.O. Box 633
Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
Cayman Islands
(345) 916-1712
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