[p2p-research] DEBT IS THE constructed PROBLEM AND DEFLATION IS THE reactionary SOLUTION

Mon Jul 12 16:05:05 CEST 2010

Hi Ryan,

you write: One must appreciate the way money is created...typically through
debt...either public or private.

this is actually what I meant, most money is now created through debt, by
banks, not by governments 'producing' money (see web of debt, ellen woods)

Kevin Carson would probably tell you that free market capitalism is a
contradiction in terms, since capitalism is based on monopolies in nearly
every sector of the economy, highly regulated, etc ...

Nevertheless, I would tend to agree, but can we prove this, that the
relative autonomy, individualism, and productive explosion that has
accompanied capitalist development in many countries, produce more happiness
than before ... though I would add a note that countries with strong welfare
provisions exhibit higher rates of happiness ... and as martin pedersen will
undoubtedly add, we whould not be oblivious that 'our' happiness may be
predicated on an increased unhappiness elswhere ..

Then there is point five,

obviously, technology changes the context for labour and learning, and this
is bound to have strong effects,

but how do you see this directly to the debt explosion?

I'm not denying the link, but what is its nature?

I find the alternative explanation, as that of david harvey, linking the
debt crisis to neoliberalism, convincing by itself (i.e. the debt crisis  is
the natural result of replacing income for labour with credit)

So, following occam's razor, we do not really need the
technology/labour/learning explanation

I would happily be convinced though, the more so that I do sense there is a
connection, which I have myself put forward under the 'crisis of value'
theory, i.e. the increasing inability of translating use value, which is now
exponentially rising, into exchange value,

however, this is a general trend, and I would be careful to claim this is
the reason for the 2008 breakdown

most likely, the 2008 crisis is the result of a confluence of trends, as
explained by Carlota Perez in Technological Revolutions and Financial
Capital, i.e. the different integrated elements which made for a successfull
kondratieff cycle, get exhausted, leading ultimately to a Sudden System
Shock

On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Michel,
>
> 1971, Bretton Woods, wasn't the privatization of money.  Banks in the US
> and Britain, etc. used to regularly print their own notes for 10s and
> hundreds of years.  1971 represents the trading of money as a requirement
> for good standing of non-commodity currencies.
>
> The rules of contracts are formal.  Money moves via contracts such as
> futures, options, debt, etc.  The rules in these areas are highly
> formalized, and those govern the way money moves.  One must appreciate the
> way money is created...typically through debt...either public or private.
> Banks are, and always have been, quasi-governmental.  They are a regulatory
> function in some respects...like stock exchanges.
>
> If states tried to provide all banking services, economies would shrink
> dramatically.  If one considers that a good, it would be wise.  I am perhaps
> old-fashioned enough to hope for continued growth and a growth-based
> economy.
>
> My views are relatively straightforward on these topics:
>
> 1. I believe free market capitalism has largely proved the happiest time
> for humans by far.
> 2. I believe in governments regulating markets.
> 3. I believe these things require careful balances.
> 4. I believe that technology is all important in changing the rules.
> 5. Technology has made labour and learning problematic.
> 6. Because of 5, the credit/debt economy of the world is now broken.
> 7. There may be ways to fix 6, but I don't see how.
> 8. If there is no way to fix 6, there will be great disruption and trauma.
>
> 9. Something else will ensue.
> 10. P2P may be part of 9.  I think "free" economies are a logical technical
> outcome.
> 11. Understanding free economies is therefore important.
> 12. There is no future in the past.
> 13. State socialism and communism are the past.
> 14. It is possible that debt-based capitalism is becoming the past.
> 15. If 14 is true, there is an urgency to uncover some means of solving
> what will replace it.
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Ryan,
>>
>> you say, as a response to Patrick: The rules of money are complex and very
>> formal.  They are typically best left to the province of states.
>>
>> BUT then the question is, since states have long ago lost their
>> sovereignty over money supply, which is created by private banks (fractional
>> reserve) and circulates through the shadow banking system outside state
>> control, how would you re-assert that sovereignty?
>>
>> If your wish is to be followed, the situation pre-1971 should be restored,
>> how do you intend to achieve the de-privatisation of money?
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>   On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 6:01 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Sovereignty is an agreement.  That is why it is problematic.  If you
>>> agree to being an American, a Japanese, a Frenchman, etc. you are
>>> participating in a common framework that empowers governments with
>>> sovereignty.  In the British system, the monarch literally embodies
>>> sovereignty.  In the US system, it is "the People."  The People have rights
>>> and responsibilities.  A person cannot simply choose to no longer
>>> participate in a sovereign framework because it leaves huge questions
>>> unanswered (e.g. who says you are an acceptable traveler?)  Who says you
>>> will agree to live under certain laws?
>>>
>>> Nations are in fact a commons.  And their currencies are also commons
>>> that have even broader sway.
>>>
>>> Every imaginable scheme for money has been tried and tried again.  There
>>> is little likelihood someone will happen upon a scheme that is simple and
>>> fresh.  Innovation takes intense study in very complex frameworks (typically
>>> like science).  That said, I think small currencies and small means of
>>> establishing local value can be beautiful, fun and very fruitful.  I do not
>>> think of them as "money."  Money is a currency, but not all currency is
>>> money.
>>>
>>> The rules of money are complex and very formal.  They are typically best
>>> left to the province of states.  Currencies, on the other hand, can be made
>>> and used by anyone from the S&H Green stamp store to the local homeless
>>> shelter.
>>>
>>> Ryan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can anyone in the universe tell me *why* a nation would choose to go
>>>> into massive debt to foreign powers when we (as much as any national
>>>> is "the we") could far more easily take the responsibility of issuance
>>>> upon ourselves?
>>>>
>>>> If 12 of us were abandoned on a deserted island, would would it be
>>>> better for us to issue some sort of currency so we could trade skills,
>>>> or would it be better to rent that money from someone on another
>>>> island?
>>>>
>>>> If peers are going to use alternate currencies, should they issue it
>>>> for themselves, or should the RENT it from someone else?
>>>>
>>>> If We, the Peers choose to RENT our money from someone else, then
>>>> *who* are those other issuers, and how did they become so superior to
>>>> us that they have the right to invent money out of thin air and then
>>>> demand payment for the use of it?
>>>>
>>>> By what authority do international bankers issue currency used by most
>>>> every nation on earth?
>>>>
>>>> I live in the USA.  We have a massive National Debt *ONLY* because we
>>>> have been taken over by foreign powers and so will not issue our own
>>>> currency.
>>>>
>>>> What good does that do?
>>>>
>>>> Those who *do* issue the currency are using those fiat notes to buy
>>>> bonds backed largely by federal lands and other national treasures.
>>>>
>>>> When we finally default on those massive loans, we will have lost
>>>> title to our country to clever thieves that have never done anything
>>>> of value except to trick us out of our sovereignty.
>>>>
>>>> WHY, WHY, WHY!?
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>> Ryan Lanham
>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>> P.O. Box 633
>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>> Cayman Islands
>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>
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>

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