[p2p-research] The problems of debt
Daniel Araya
levelsixmedia at hotmail.com
Mon Jul 12 14:28:21 CEST 2010
How so?
D
From: gurstein at gmail.com
To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:21:08 +0200
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] The problems of debt
Message
This kind of
Beck-ian discussion is as much a red herring as the
original.
M
-----Original Message-----
From:
p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org
[mailto:p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org] On Behalf Of Daniel
Araya
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 2:09 PM
To:
p2presearch at listcultures.org
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] The
problems of debt
Michel, you're presenting a false
argument IMO. Ryan is making the point that the entire system of capitalism
(all strata included) is highly productive-- the most productive system so far
in fact. Marx himself made the very same point...
D
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:12:48 +0700
From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
To:
p2presearch at listcultures.org
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] The problems of
debt
this is of course very questionable ...
put capitalists in a room, and they are tremendously unproductive, they
are only productive because workers are productive, but you could argue, that
the organisation of production is a form of productivity ... yet most of that
done is not done by capitalists but by a paid managerial class ...
also, as we now know, the most well-paid were actually destroying the
most value (there is a study of the NEF on that ... .. the added value of
capitalists and financiers is actually negative)
so your statement that in capitalism, the more value you create, the more
you consume, is a nice piece of mythology, but unwarranted and disproven
..
you also discount social movements ... the Nordic countries have very
strong labour and social movements, could this be an explanation, rather than
mysterious goodness, that explains their social system,
and is it a coincidence that the best-paid workers in the world, i.e. the
Koreans, also have the strongest unions?
following your reasoning, the top 1% of the population mysteriously
created lots and lots more value ... yet, growth rates declined dramatically
since the 1980's
Michel
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 10:58 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
wrote:
In the past and present, people of enormous
productivity (e.g. capitalists) consumed significantly in a way that others
see as wasteful. Indeed it is. But they view this as a reward
for their huge productivity. Measuring productivity and value creation
is hard. No one knows exactly how to do it. But we do know that
people will argue that their capacity for value creation is greater than it
might actually be. In other words, people negotiate for their own
benefit rather than society's. If society does a bad job at evaluating
value of productivity, systems become very inefficient, and the machines of
society too often produce stuff people don't want as much as they could have
if the machines had been used efficiently.
In capitalism, the
more value you create. The more you get to consume. In any other
system, immediate imbalances are inevitable. The only possible non
capitalist system that can work, in my view, is one where moral
responsibility to the society is a sort of currency...as in Nordic
countries. In those places, value producers subordinate their own
desires to those of others. Why? Who can say.
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Ryan Lanham
<rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
wrote:
Money is, in simplest terms, a machine.
It
isn't like a machine. It IS a machine. It is a machine that
either makes something others want (value) or it is a machine that makes
things only a consumer wants (i.e. consumption).
If it makes
consumption, it is used up. If money makes value, like all machines
that can be used more than once, it is a value multiplier.
If someone uses money to create value, then they are
productive. Productivity leads to happier worlds because people have
things others want. In an eastern-styled anti-desire world, these
systems do not apply...though there is ample evidence, given free choice,
nearly everyone wants something that is scarce. Wanting fewer things
that are scarce is a sort of advantage in this new world, but it is a
choice most would not want to make freely. People like cars, tools,
luxuries of all sorts...jewelry, prettier mates, etc. These things
cost machinery...money to produce. If they don't create further
value...then that is consumption. Non productive consumption burns
up capital. It is a fire in the machine shop. Granted, it is a
necessary fire, but it is a fire none-the-less.
Build a good
machine...and value is created. Build a worthless life or machine,
and value is consumed.
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Ryan Lanham
<rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
wrote:
I've been asked to explain debt problems as
influenced by technology. I'll try.
Here's my
"theory". Many others share or have versions of something
similar. I claim no originality. I've posted several
versions on this list.
1. Growth occurs when someone produces
something others value. The sum total of value is the
economy.
2. In the past, it was a matter of work and labour to
produce something of value...like digging a hole where a hole was
wanted.
3. People learned to take money that was not in use and to
use it by borrowing it and then buying value-production which was then
placed on sale.
4. The process of 3 entails risk. Risk was
rewarded by profit.
5. The system of 3-4 really works quite well so
long as profit is likely.
6. In a world where learning and high
productive machinery requiring low skill levels is readily available
(i.e. post 1990 or so) making profit is harder. 7. Item 6 is
especially true if innovation is not protected by the state (e.g.
through intellectual property.)
8. Because profit is harder
especially in tangible goods and services (because of technology and
learning distribution) credit is harder.
9. When credit became hard,
the incentives to cheat increased. People lent money badly and
then cleverly sold the bad loans to others who didn't understand.
10.
When 9 happened, the state had to decide whether huge firms fulfilling
important institutional roles would die, or be saved.
11.
Nearly all states, especially in Japan and Europe, chose to save old
institutions (e.g. Royal Bank of Scotland), or in the US, AIG.
12.
There is now an open question as to whether markets can still create
value (e.g. the iPod) in such a way that debt is justified. If
not, capitialism in the form that creates ready growth through using
unused money is screwed.
13. When money goes unused, it is difficult
to create new money and growth of value. There is no/little
incentive to innovate. This can be called "deflation."
14.
Deflation is more dangerous to capitalism by far than inflation.
Deflation means shrinkage of an economy because unused money becomes
more valuable by sitting than by being used. Thus, people become
even more risk averse.
15. When 14 happens for a long time (e.g.
Japan) then demographic and institutional patterns start to become
unsustainable.
16. When 15 happens, we do not understand the long
term outcomes, but they don't seem good.
--
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Facebook:
Ryan_Lanham
P.O. Box 633
Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
Cayman
Islands
(345) 916-1712
--
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Facebook:
Ryan_Lanham
P.O. Box 633
Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
Cayman
Islands
(345)
916-1712
--
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Facebook:
Ryan_Lanham
P.O. Box 633
Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
Cayman
Islands
(345)
916-1712
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