[p2p-research] open manufacturing, generalized exchange, and non-market functions

[Ryan Lanham]

I buy your correction.  Japan is an interesting model...as always.

China seems to be following US models as is Canada.  That SEEMS impossible,
but only time will tell.

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Ryan,
>
> I only have trouble accepting your third point, 'consumer demand will never
> fall' ... this seem to me about conflating a culturally engineered and
> structurally stimulated social fact, with some 'eternal' fact of human
> nature. Of course, I'm not discounting the present force of it, but giving
> the long history of human behaviour before consumer capitalism, the
> difficulty or either maintaining demand (in Japan), or even stimulating it
> (in china), and given the different structural conditions we are facing, I
> don't think this should be considered such an 'eternal' fact,
>
> In fact I think you are discounting profound changes in terms of
> post-consumption, post-ownership, post-material types of behaviour that are
> already growing quite substantially in present society, and for example
> described and monitored in magazines such as shareable ..
>
> Michel
>
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 2:52 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>  On 1/29/10, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think you are right Ryan,
>>>
>>> feudalism did not just replace slavery because it was more competitive
>>> with slaves, but because it was an entirely different value proposition and
>>> social organization; and similarly capitalism did not compete with feudal
>>> landlords on feudal terms; I think similarly p2p represents a new value
>>> proposition and social organisation ... It will take over if the former is
>>> sufficiently in crisis not to be able to solve deeprooted and increasing
>>> social and environmental problems of its own creation ... of course, I think
>>> this is effectively the case ..
>>>
>>> The anwswer depends to a large degree if capitalism can integrate the
>>> externalities that it has historically 'externalized' ... which has be
>>> considered highly unlikely,
>>>
>>> I personally think this has to do with the very core logic of the system,
>>> but I'm willing to be proven wrong, both in argument, and in practice,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>
>>
>> There are about 5 things about capitalism that I don't think anyone really
>> understands yet:
>>
>> 1. Profit is harder and harder...and more concentrated in fewer
>> enterprises.
>> 2. Credit is harder and harder because of 1 and more concentrated in fewer
>> enterprises.
>> 3. Consumer demand is never going to fall, but consumer debt capacity can
>> be easily maximized.
>> 4. Several externalities are being ignored.  This will have systemic
>> implications.
>> 5. Wage labor is becoming irrelevant...first because of globalization,
>> second because of technology, third because of disintermediation of
>> institutions by social network technologies--everyone is becoming a
>> freelancer.
>>
>> Any one of those could disrupt the system completely.  In concert, they
>> are a completely unpredictable set of forces.  Prediction is extremely hard
>> now.  There are just too many tidal changes going on at once.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
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> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
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>
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Ryan Lanham
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