[p2p-research] Free flipper! argues scientist

[Michel Bauwens]

Hi Ryan,

I think that indeed one can arrive at the p2p ethos from quite different
metaphysical assumptions,

but I guess I can't see a person 'without metaphysics', I don't see any
position/science/physics arising without any presuppositions of the world,
and those I call metaphysics

so in my reading, there are different kinds of metaphysics

also, the kind of atheism I critique is not that of people simply saying
that no god exists, or for whom it doesn't matter (in my own case), but
rather that particularly kind of 19th cy metaphysics, still dominant in most
of the 20th century, that sees only objects in the world.

with post-secular I mean the effort to direct one's gaze not just at
external matter, but to the lived reality of the bodymind, and the many
wondrous things that can happen with it, if one practices some of the
spiritual techniques that have historically been mostly developed 'inside'
religions (yoga, tantra, zen, vipassana, what have you)

it's simply part of human experience, and there is no obligation to go into
it (like art and music, the life of the spirit is an option), but I do have
the problem with those that are aggressively against it, and cannot make the
finer distinctions between religious belief, religious power institutions,
spiritual experiences, and bodymind technologies,

the kind of atheism that destroys our connection and participation with the
natural world, is dangerous for the survival of our world (as are
dominion-based religious attitudes which would have the same effect)

Michel

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:34 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/4/10, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> I disagree that p2p must be 'atheistic', I would agree it is based on
>> (post-)secular spirituality,
>>
>> pure atheistic secularism, which destroys our participative link with the
>> nature and the totality of the universe, with its radical subject/object
>> split, is co-extensive with capitalism, modernity and industrial society, it
>> is the system we are in the process of leaving.
>>
>
> Hi Michel,
>
> I would find it hard to believe the future is less atheistic, but I
> recognize the many times I have been sweepingly and elegantly wrong in
> totality many times before.  I tend to think we are at the dawn of a new age
> of education and learning where machine learning and brains start to get
> very close...but you would be right and fair to reprimand that as still a
> dream.
>
> While a Shinto-like animism is not completely unreasonable to me, I see no
> reason for it.  I veneration and humility are point, I am in.  I venerate
> nature and am humbled by it.  But the sort of Nietzchean portrait of atheism
> you are painting feels unjust for history and the current reality.  Maybe
> the Soviets and Chinese present such a stark version of the
> anti-metaphysical, but I don't think it is representative.
>
> I am unclear on subject/object distinction, but I strongly suspect you
> are hinting at the interaction of all things and the necesary connectedness
> of the physical and the living.  I agree with all that...extensively.  I see
> no need of metaphysics to so agree.
>
> Occam's razor erases most metaphysics for me.  I just don't see the point.
> If others do, I am not opposed.  For me, there is none.  I would hate to be
> excluded (or see machines excluded) because of an unwillingness to profess a
> metaphysical position.  I don't suggest you are placing such a requirement
> on P2P.
>
> But the ethos itself, much like govenment, I think should be silent on the
> metaphysical.   Interconnectedness is mystical in some ways.  I can
> appreciate the desire of many to acknowledge that.  It is doing so in such a
> way that is not exclusive that become hard.
>



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