[p2p-research] a new funding mechanism for useful online services

Mon Jan 4 09:42:19 CET 2010

thanks as usual for your honesty and representing a point of view that is
not so often present here, as usual I'm learning a lot.

I think what you say about U.S. is actually true for the West in general,

Western civilizations is, like all civilisations, based on both internal and
external coercion, so "we" did a lot of evil,

At the same time, western civilisation is in my view also the only one where
social forces have actually acknowledged this and did serious attempts to
undo them.

All civilisations had slavery, and the western one was the only one to
abolish it.

Ideally, I prefer a civil society based peer polity,

in practice, living in a flawed capitalist democracy beats living, for most
of us, living in a totalitarian so-called socialist state

but I do think that's not the reality of Venezuela, which is a flawed
capitalist democracy with a government attempting a new type of socialist
policies

and while it is the reality of cuba, I somehow also think it still has
redeeming features as a society

I have right wing friends here as colleagues, who've been to Cuba and were
impressed for different reasons, it was so unlike their expectations ...

I think a yin  yang philosophy is still useful, there's always dark in
light, and light in darkness,

fortunately, we do not always have to make a stark choice, and can do a lot
for forward/promote democratic p2p alternatives

Michel

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 8:48 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Thanks Ryan,
>>
>> we are all products of our backgrounds, then try to built our selves on
>> top of it ... nobody can escape bot the dignities and the indignities of our
>> original background.
>>
>
> Yes, this is a problem.  On the other hand, those who reinvent themselves,
> as you have, and I like to think I have, do have a renewed possibility of
> being something different than our roots.  I cannot divorce myself from the
> US, though I have sometimes considered it.  It is more something upon
> reflection that I recognize is fairly fundamental in me.  All the words like
> patriot etc. that the US right has tried to manipulate in rather frightening
> ways still resonate with me.
>
>
>
>>
>> I recognize American exceptionalism as a lived subjective reality, though
>> it is mostly fictional. The U.S. has done a mixture: genocide of the
>> natives, long lasting black slavery, the continued mass imprisonment of the
>> poor even today, massive support for violent authoritirian governments on
>> the right, but also, abolishing slavery, civil rights, the defeat of fascism
>> and the containment of Stalinism ...
>>
>>
>
> There is no one without blood on their hands.  Reforming modern democracies
> to my mind does not release Japan, Belgium, Spain, the UK or France from
> their pasts any more than it does Germany,   The US carries the specter of
> all the crimes you describe plus others...horrific immigration practices,
> tragic interventionist policies, etc.  On the other hand, I think few modern
> nations have matched the US in attempting to make serious amends for its
> ills.  With regard to colonialism, we are I think sensitive to Europe's
> seeming idea that they contributed to their colonial empires and that
> independence was a "gift" that has been often squandered.  I think Europe
> needs a massive soul searching about colonialism...
>
> You are right that much of modern America is fictional, but so too is much
> of our evil past.  Many of the colonies tossed off slavery long before
> England did.  While Indians were slaughtered, the numbers were probably less
> than those killed in Australia or South Africa or the Congo.  Most died of
> disease.  Sometimes the spread of disease was intentional, but
> overwhelmingly not.  The entire Sioux nation at its peak was probably
> 10,000.  There are many more now all of whom have passports (the UK never
> did offer Hong Kong residents one nor did the French offer them in Africa).
> Slavery was a crisis, but what other nation has ever gone to war with itself
> over the freedom of a subject people or debated the issue in its halls of
> government regularly?  What nation in the 19th century changed its
> constitution to protect a subject people?  While we did have a civil rights
> crisis, we also had a Martin Luther King and now many venerate him.  Will
> the French or Germans have a Muslim MLK?  Did the Russians ever have a
> moment of justice for any of their colonies?  The Chinese?  The Indians?  No
> nation has built more national parks, set aside more lands for preservation
> or led in these ways.
>
>
>
>> I'm quite hybrid myself by the wayt,
>>
>> on the one hand, I've have a really working class background, both my
>> parents were worker orphan children who started working in factories by age
>> 13, my father spend the first third of his working life as a worker, the
>> second as a white collar employee, the third in the lower ranks of
>> management, but always as a union member; I worked in factories doing
>> physical labour for 3 months each summer from 16 to 23; the fact that I
>> could go to school, enjoy free education and medicine, makes me a product of
>> social democracy, for which I'm hugely thankful
>>
>>
>
> I would prefer myself to live under a social democracy, but I also
> recognize there is no one best way.  America has worked in its own way and
> those who see it as an ideal are not simply wrong...markets and liberty do
> work...they have externalities just as social democracies do.  Value
> judgments, especially those made after long path dependent histories, are
> difficult if not impossible to make. Nations make a journey just as people
> do.  Moral judgment about these paths in terms of outcomes is very
> problematic.
>
>
>> but then, I lived a year in the US, spend 9 years working for the US
>> government, 3 years for the top management of a large agri concern, etc... I
>> moved steadily to the right, and remember being a supporter of the first
>> Gulf War ... then a moral and spiritual crises occured when I was 42, and I
>> moved back to my origins, as for me all the signs were clear that the
>> neoliberal model was destroying the planet and the social fabric of global
>> society.
>>
>> This informs my choices, like you a hate Stalinism, but I do not hate
>> public services and welfare policies, on the contrary, and I especially
>> favour today, as p2p'er, local grassroots organizing without coercion. So,
>> looking at Venezuela, I cannot yet see any big crimes, but I see lots of
>> social democratic reforms that we take for granted in Europe,  as well as
>> lots of cooperative ventures on the ground, to the degree that it would veer
>> to an authoritirian system, that system would be my enemy. But, this is
>> important, the structural violence done to the poor in formal democracies
>> (but with little social content as they are controlled by local
>> oligarchies), is just as objectionable. Venezuela in the 30 years before
>> Chavez was on a steady course of neoliberal impoverishment, it was simply
>> not sustainable. So the question becomes then, what is better, Lula or
>> Chavez, to me the jury is still out.
>>
>>
>
> I hate the loss of choice.  I hate hegemony of one mind over another.  But
> I also hate ignorance and parochialism.  Honestly, I do not have a view on
> Venezuela.  I think the European left is enamored. I think the US right is
> hate-filled on the subject.  I fall somewhere toward the US
> right...admittedly not a very sturdy moral place to be.
>
>
>
>> Combining public services and welfare state systems, with  real democracy,
>> and a thriving p2p oriented civil society, would have my preference, but we
>> do not always have such a clean choice ..
>>
>> Ideologically, I combine radical social democracy or civil socialism,
>> post-secular spirituality, belief in the emancipagory potential of networked
>> technologies, in the p2p mixture that you know,
>>
>> It is perhaps not an accident that 50% of our readers are from the U.S.
>>
>>
>
> Michel, you do a great service.  I think you have fostered a diversity of
> views while not sugar-coating excessively your own identity.  Few achieve
> that.  I do not disagree on your preferences which I would share.
>
> I suppose the rub is in process.  How does one achieve these ends from
> different starting points without brutishness. I believe education and
> reasoning take most people to reasonable social democracy.  Perhaps that is
> just a long war.  Will Islamic nations get there?  Iran is very hopeful at
> the moment.  Its blood fills Americans with hope.  Our Thomas Jefferson said
> the tree of liberty is fertilized by the occasional blood of revolution.
> His words were better and I should look them up.  Hopefully we are advancing
> beyond blood.
>
> The older I get, the more I realize that any useful discussion is
> contentious--along lines Andy is advancing.  At the same time, for me, it
> must be civil.  Civil and contentious...that's what I'd wish for any social
> democracy.
>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Michel,
>>>
>>> Two things are true about me.  First is that I think socialism is
>>> inherently a failed system.  Second, I think the Nordic countries have dealt
>>> with the inherent failures in such a way (mostly through cultural norming)
>>> as to make the very real failings of socialism work better than almost any
>>> other conceivable system.  So yes, there is a paradox in my arguments.
>>> Whether the paradox is a contradiction is a matter for others to judge.
>>>
>>> I do feel the Nordic countries (a term that includes Sweden, Finland,
>>> Iceland, Norway and Denmark for me...) have invented a superior way of life.
>>> But they have invested intensively in education, cultural norming, etc. in a
>>> way that I suspect is unrealistic for most places/nations.  Also, their
>>> history of poverty before WW2 (and almost all these countries were very
>>> poor) made them much more open to collective action.
>>>
>>> I find most socialist revolutions (e.g. Cuba, 1917, Venezuela, etc.) to
>>> be among the most heinous crimes committed against humans...even if the
>>> intended social outcomes are very similar to what has come about in, say,
>>> Sweden.
>>>
>>> So I suppose I place very high value on collaboration and consensus and
>>> very high negative judgments on coercion.
>>>
>>> Both of these are American traits I'd say.  I feel, at my core, that I am
>>> an American.  I sympathize with our history (though I recognize the many
>>> huge past and present failings).  I feel the US has been a morally superior
>>> great nation to others and that part of our moral superiority rests on a
>>> commitment to greater liberties than socialism tends to allow.  I feel that
>>> moral superiority has been in serious doubt...especially since Ronald
>>> Reagan, when several US ideals were simply taken too far. It has happened
>>> before and the nation has recovered.  Right now, the principle moral
>>> failings relate to too little collective action and too much greed.  There
>>> are other issues such as racial prejudice that matter, but the real issues
>>> now relate to radical acceptance of excessive earning and consumption.  Few
>>> Americans (maybe 30%) share this view.
>>>
>>> Almost all Americans hate socialism and especially coercive Communism
>>> which was our opponent in war for much of my early life...and which is
>>> probably equivalent in the American ethos to fascism in the modern European
>>> ethos.  Americans felt abandoned and burdened by Europe during the Cold
>>> War...there was, whether fairly or not, a sense the Europeans were enjoying
>>> a vibrant and subsidized life by playing the US and the Soviets off one
>>> another.    European socialism is sometimes seen as a form of surrender to
>>> the Soviet ideals of the past.  This is a burden of history...one that is
>>> mostly inaccurate in Sweden, but maybe truer in Romania or Italy.   So, I
>>> think I carry the burden of an America that raised me in the Cold War...a
>>> war that was far less real for Europeans even though they lived in the
>>> prospective theater of operations.  In a sense, America bore the
>>> intellectual and social cost of competing with the Soviets.  Consequently,
>>> we view socialism as an evil...implicitly.  That conservative view pervades
>>> America--even our left.  It will for some time.  However, we relish
>>> innovation--much more I'd say than Europeans, in general, and therefore like
>>> to try new approaches, new modes, new ideals...so long as they aren't old
>>> rejected ideals.  Maybe something here begins to explain my contradictions.
>>>
>>> Ryan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ryan,
>>>>
>>>> you often refer favourable to the nordic countries, who rely quite a bit
>>>> on public services,
>>>>
>>>> yet, when it is proposed, you critique it ...
>>>>
>>>> as far as I understand the proposal, it doesn't involve any management
>>>> by government at all ...
>>>>
>>>> but in fact, I'm suspecting a too quick reaction here, as in my reading,
>>>> it doesn't even involve government funding!!
>>>>
>>>> see:
>>>>
>>>>  « Greenwashing or conscious capitalism?<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/greenwashing-or-conscious-capitalism/2010/01/02>
>>>>
>>>> Towards Public Open Source Services, An ingenious P2P Funding proposal
>>>> by Jeff Lindsay<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/towards-public-open-source-services-an-ingenious-p2p-funding-proposal-by-jeff-lindsay/2010/01/04>
>>>> [image: photo of Michel Bauwens]
>>>> Michel Bauwens
>>>> 4th January 2010
>>>>
>>>>  An ingenious proposal <http://poss.gliderlab.com/> by *Jeff Lindsay*:
>>>>
>>>> *“The point is this: Twitter is an important piece of infrastructure.
>>>> Even if it didn’t change for a long time, people would still use it because
>>>> it is useful. If there was no business behind it (which there practically
>>>> isn’t — got revenue?) … would the community pay for it? It depends on how
>>>> much, right? Well, say expenses are low and users are high … and you don’t
>>>> require everybody to pay the same amount, so some pay a lot, some pay
>>>> nothing, and some somewhere in between. And say you have enough people
>>>> paying different amounts that collectively make enough to keep it running
>>>> (which we assume we can get it way down there), well… then it will run. If
>>>> they don’t … it simply goes away. Why? It can’t run. Nobody is paying for
>>>> it.*
>>>>
>>>> *Now think about something else. How many useful bits of cool plumbing
>>>> are made and abandoned on the web because people realize there’s no true
>>>> business case for it? And by business case, I mean make sense to be able to
>>>> turn a profit or at least enough to pay the people involved. Even as a
>>>> lifestyle business, it still has to pay for at least one person … which is a
>>>> lot! But forget abandoned … how much cool tech isn’t even attempted because
>>>> there is an assumption that in order for it to survive and be worth the
>>>> effort, there has to be a business? Somebody has to pay for hosting!
>>>> Alternatively, what if people built cool stuff because it’s just cool? Or
>>>> useful (but not useful enough to get people to pay — see Twitter)?*
>>>>
>>>> *Well this is common in open source. A community driven by passion and
>>>> wanting to build cool/useful stuff. A lot of great things have come from
>>>> open source. But open source is just that … source. It’s not run. You have
>>>> to run it. How do you get the equivalent of open source for services? This
>>>> is a question I’ve been trying to figure out for years. But it’s all coming
>>>> together now …*
>>>>
>>>> *Enter POSS:*
>>>>
>>>> *POSS is an extension of open source. You start with some software that
>>>> provides a service (we’ll just say web service … so it can be a web app or a
>>>> web API, whatever — it runs “in the cloud”). The code is open source.
>>>> Anybody can fix bugs or extend it. But there is also a single canonical
>>>> instance of this source, running as a service in the cloud. Hence the final
>>>> S … but it’s a public service. Made for public benefit. That’s it. Not
>>>> profit. Just “to be useful.” Like most open source.*
>>>>
>>>> *So how do you take care of something like this financially? If it’s
>>>> running, it’s using resources. Well, again, if you expect this thing to be
>>>> financially self-sufficient, it needs to leverage the cost saving benefits
>>>> of cloud based infrastructure, but also take humans (which tend to be the
>>>> biggest expense) completely out of the loop. So you automate as much as
>>>> possible.*
>>>>
>>>> *If you can, you ceratinly don’t want to have to fuss with all the
>>>> details of running and administering a system. This means even EC2 is not
>>>> ideal. Google App Engine however … there is not a single bit of system
>>>> administration beyond designing database indexing (arguably DBA, not
>>>> sysadmin). You don’t touch a Unix prompt. It’s all taken care of for you …
>>>> even scaling! What’s more, is it’s cheap and on-demand. These are perfect
>>>> foundations for a self-sustaining system… now you just need to get people to
>>>> pay for it!*
>>>>
>>>> *So what, you set up a PayPal account and tell people to donate? Well,
>>>> you’re still in the loop if you have to take those donations and pay a bill
>>>> to Google. Not to mention convincing people they need to pay. Instead let’s
>>>> do this … this is the heart of the magic of POSS:*
>>>>
>>>> *You use the same Google Merchant account that App Engine debits as the
>>>> one that accepts donations. This way no bank account is involved. Then you
>>>> track the money that goes into the account (using the Google Merchant IPN
>>>> equivalent). Then you look at your usage stats from the App Engine panel and
>>>> predicate future usage trends. Then calculate the cost per month. Then
>>>> divide the cash in the account by that and you have how long the service
>>>> will run. You make this visible on all pages (at the bottom, say) that this
>>>> service will run for X months, “Pay now to keep it running.” You accept any
>>>> amount, but you are completely clear about what the costs are. And this is
>>>> all automated.*
>>>>
>>>> *That’s right. Once in place, you can completely remove yourself. If
>>>> the service is useful, people will use it. If they want to keep using it,
>>>> they pay for it. If they don’t, it goes away. But costs are completely
>>>> transparent, as cheap as possible, and on-demand. So perhaps it does go away
>>>> because it ended up not being useful. Somebody else stumbles upon it
>>>> (through a static page placeholder) that allows them to “put more quarters
>>>> in” if they want to use it. It’s also open source, so if people want to make
>>>> changes or fix something, they can. Various people in the community would
>>>> have the ability to deploy to the cloud … just like some in open source are
>>>> considered a canonical source for the source code (in the context of DSCM).
>>>> It’s not just “Software as a Service” … it’s “Open Source Software as a
>>>> Public Service”.*
>>>>
>>>> *In effect, you get something kind of like Wikipedia — only leaner, and
>>>> more automated. They do fundraising drives to cover their annual operating
>>>> expenses. This is a batching approach that lean thinking shows us is
>>>> inefficient. POSS makes this a continual, ongoing process … making it much
>>>> more efficient. Not to mention completely automated.*
>>>>
>>>> *Now the story above assumes App Engine, but you can tweak it to work
>>>> in other circumstances. The point is the story above is ideal and best to
>>>> prove the point.*
>>>>
>>>> *The community pays for, maintains, and consequently uses this software
>>>> as a service, leveraging all the latest cloud infrastructure. And it all
>>>> starts by you making something cool. The cooler it is, the more people will
>>>> use it, the more it will cost, but the more people to split the bill with.
>>>> And different people will value it differently. This is a plus. Sure, some
>>>> people won’t pay for it. But some people will pay way more than many because
>>>> they have the money and may get more value out of it. This system can be
>>>> further be optimized to fully extract consumer surplus using tricks like
>>>> suggesting donations that get larger until there is resistance.*
>>>>
>>>> *So much stupid crap is made on the web in attempts to make money. Most
>>>> of them fail. Yet you have completely valuable and useful things on the web
>>>> (Twitter), that aren’t making a dime. Perhaps capitalism isn’t the only
>>>> answer. And I know I referenced nationalizing at the beginning, but this
>>>> isn’t about socialism either. It’s simply about technology and
>>>> self-sufficiency. Certainly, not everything should be POSS. The best
>>>> candidates are reusable infrastructure bits of plumping and difficult
>>>> computation made easy. Infrastructure that will make it easier for you and
>>>> others to build a service that is worthy of a startup, not to mention
>>>> letting tinkerers do more with less.*
>>>>
>>>> *Would this work for Wikipedia or Twitter? Considering their scale and
>>>> the complexity behind that, probably not. It’s hard to automate very complex
>>>> things. But as we continue to standardize industry practice, virtualize,
>>>> automate and raise abstractions … someday it may be possible.” *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  On 12/29/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> here's the text Ryan, which I'm reproducing on the blog
>>>>>>
>>>>>> see
>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/towards-public-open-source-services-an-ingenious-p2p-funding-proposal-by-jeff-lindsay/2010/01/04
>>>>>>
>>>>>> since I've covered it, perhaps Sam and Sepp could have a look at the
>>>>>> services mentioned at the last paragraph?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It sounds mysteriously like "government."  Do people really think this
>>>>> will work?  I can think of 1000 problems almost instantly.  First, who
>>>>> controls the working release?  Governance will be a continual headache and
>>>>> there will be no clear way to identify who has the expertise and the
>>>>> commitment to be good at governance.  Second, no one will fund start-up
>>>>> risks--this only works where markets fail.  Third, you have to "nationalize"
>>>>> success by taking away risk venture incentives away from entrepreneurs.
>>>>> Fourth, government programs are always rife with excessive start up costs
>>>>> and intensive free riding issues.  Nothing here addresses those. (And I work
>>>>> for government!)
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of Twitter, lots of people are thinking through monetizing
>>>>> the engine now.  If it doesn't work, then it is entirely possible the owners
>>>>> will make it a co-op...a very standard and widely used market model.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, but I see nothing new here at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ryan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>>>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan Lanham
>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>>  Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>> P.O. Box 633
>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>> Cayman Islands
>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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