[p2p-research] [Commoning] Am I missing any commons?

Fri Feb 26 18:35:10 CET 2010

Hi Massimo,

In my writings, I definitely have a class analysis, which of course may be
different than yours, since I claim that the change occurs on a double
front, while the 'producing' class increasingly turns to peer production as
part of its practice of value creation, starting with the immaterial aspects
but moving increasingly in the world of physical 'making', part of the
'managing class' is moving as well, and I use the concept of netarchical
capitalism for that. My position  is similar to some radicals in the french
revolution, who believed that the bourgeoisie had a role to play, even as
they would then betray the interests of the sans-culottes. I think the
situation is somewhat similar and that we are facing a new transition. Our
position as peer producing communities must be at once to use netarchical
capitalism to our benefit, because they are producing platforms and
providing financial means that we need; and also because vis a vis the older
forces of capital, they are often partially 'on our side' (open spectrum,
opposition to net neutrality). This is a question of realism for me. At the
same time though, we need a preferential treatment for allying with those
enterpreneurial forces that respect the commons and are more in harmony with
the p2p value system. Thus we must prefer working with free software coops,
rather than say multinationals. Thus we must prefer say fair trade, to
so-called 'free trade', etc ... One day we may be strong enough to fully
create our own autonomous structures, and we must already do so where we
can. But this relentless push must be accompanied with a true sense of the
possible, the potential and the precise nature of the historical moment we
are in, which is comparable to the early discovery of Marx of the Manchester
manufacturers.

Of course you are right that many in thethe free software movement is not
sufficiently aware of physical dependendies and 'class' issues, many are
liberals, some right-wing libertarians, but are  you in a position to
'change their mind'? By all means critique, but also realize that the fight
for a free culture, i.e. the fight against artificial scarcity, is just as
important as the two other planks, i.e the fight against the
pseudo-abundance of the capitalist economy, and the need to embed both in
social justice. But the thing is, these three plans have to be integrated
and engineered with people that do not necessarily share the full
understanding that you have. Despite these ideological differences, there
are many concrete actions we can unite around. This does not prohibit the
more 'advanced' forces to push the boundaries of the possible.

But if we can unite the free cultural movements, the biospheric defense
movements, and the social justice movements (labour and farm workers), then
we are a long way in the right direction. Despite the p2p foundation being a
pluralistic platform, these goals are clearly stated in our Principles,

So again, a pragmatic alliance and support of Google around open spectrum,
does not imply a full alliance with all it does, nor prohibit us to critique
its netarchical exploitation of the commons wherever that occurs,

In terms of cooptation, I'm in favour of social charters that clearly
delineate what a true commons is, setting boundaries for cooperation with
partially friendly forces,

Michel

Michel

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Massimo De Angelis <
m.deangelis at ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Michel
>
> you are stereotyping "class" and political movements. I was not referring
> to a trot concept of class (based incidentally, on their rigid
> "classification" of who belong to the "working class" and thus can provide
> "leadership"), but as the constituent process of commonning vis-a'-vis
> capital. Class here is just as condition as result of this process. I am not
> trot, and in fact the bulk of my work is grounded on a critique of
> conventional Marxists perspectives.
>
> And of course I also know many p2p people who acknowledge the various
> dependencies, and I also know of their great efforts and contribution to our
> movements. But the issue remain, because it seems to me, the great bulk of
> the Free Software movement for example is characterised by a "information
> exceptionalism" conception, i.e. one that problematises the contemporary
> configuration of property rights ONLY with respect to "knowledge, code and
> design commons" . . .well, I think it is time to challenge this more
> systematically and effectively and the p2p foundation I think "ought" to
> have a more prominent role in this challenge.
>
> I also, "see more value and strength in the internetworking of all the
> initiatives that are already creating the world of tomorrow" now, i.e.
> today. But this process of creation  . . .guess what, encounters the limit
> of encosures and cooptation, i.e.  . . .auch . .. here is again the
> inescapable question of "class"  .. you do not want to call it this way,
> call it another way . . .but it is class nevertheless, i.e. the constituent
> process of commonning vis-a'-vis capital
>
> best
>
> massimo
>
>  On 26 Feb 2010, at 10:20, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>
> Massimo, the p2p people that I know, are all precarious and very well aware
> of the p2p dependencies, and most of them are very active in building the
> necessary new infrastructures, based on different social relations ... of
> course, most of them may not be shouting against capitalism in rallies, but
> their contributions are just as crucial; most of them are immensely more
> grounded and embodied than old style activists ...
>
> as for creating broad alliances by harping on class, good luck with that,
> but I have seen scant evidence of that working, except in the phone booths
> where the trots are arguing about the right path ... I see more value and
> strength in the internetworking of all the initiatives that are already
> creating the world of tomorrow, (of course, we talk about class, but it is
> counterproductive to frame it totally in such a way)
>
> you will note that at least in the work of the p2p foundation, p2p is NOT
> about cyberspace, but about the knowledge, code and design commons that
> intersect with concrete physical communities and their real needs
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Massimo De Angelis <
> m.deangelis at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> all I am saying is that it is time for the p2p movement to recognise more
>> the contradictions it is founded on (and reproduce) and acknowledge its
>> heavy dependence on the "tangible" realm -- and begin to build more concrete
>> bridges, and  . . .
>>
>> hey, no need for state metering of cyberspace, on the contrary . . . but
>> maybe your foundation can set up a  "crowd-funding" mechanism to pool money
>> from cyber users to help communities in struggles around issue of land and
>> enclosures on the "tangible" realm, making the point that with "great powers
>> come great responsibilities" and p2p need to recognise their dependence on
>> others, and that although they can do very much to help us in "hampering
>> innovation" etc, it is not innovation that will save us in the context of a
>> boundless regime of accumulation .. .maybe the very moment you begin to set
>> up a mechanism to pool resources in this way, you open up the debate over
>> inter-dependence and the cost of this inter-dependence.  . .maybe you will
>> be alienating many p2p activists, who just want to do their stuff, maybe so,
>> but maybe this is necessary, because saying and doing the "right" things
>> always create *class *lines anew, redefining class as a new common ground
>> . .maybe is time to do precisely  this, and we need all the creativity and
>> ingenuity of p2p, but without the body of our relation to the earth and one
>> another in reproduction, p2p is as much as part of the problem than of the
>> solution . . .
>>
>> best
>>
>> massimo
>>
>>
>>  On 26 Feb 2010, at 09:46, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>
>> I agree, but unless you suggest that we meter the internet to pay for
>> these externalities, we have to protect the open and free input and access
>> of the cyber commons
>>
>> in fact, the universal sharing of technological innovations is just as
>> crucial for saving our biosphere, as the capitalist market artificial
>> scarcity engineering and waste-abundance engineering, and hampering of
>> innovation, must be radically reversed
>>
>> and if thus a radical re-orientation of social relations will be
>> necessary, if we have to wait for full communism to save the earth, we might
>> as well hang ourselves,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Massimo De Angelis <
>> m.deangelis at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sure
>>>
>>> but "pragmatically" currently implies that the "public or private
>>> infrastructures" are unable to avoid us 4 degree global warming -- see
>>> latest research on climate change during COP15 -- not to talk about the
>>> implications for local communities in my previous email . .
>>>
>>> there is no way to deal with the desirable development of cyber p2p
>>> without at the same time posing the urgent need to change social relations
>>> of production with respect to land and other "tangible" means of production
>>> . . .there is no "pragmatism" that can save us from ecological and social
>>> doom, no p2p great discovery . . .ultimately, there are only three things :
>>> our relation to "land", to "land", to "land" (and therefore to one another)
>>> .. .
>>>
>>> best
>>>
>>> massimo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On 26 Feb 2010, at 09:23, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree, but pragmatically it is possible to have open and free input and
>>> universal access to digital and knowledge resources, with the externalities
>>> taken care of by the public or private infrastructures
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Massimo De Angelis <
>>> m.deangelis at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> please note
>>>>
>>>> finite resources ALSO apply to non physical commons -- the only
>>>> difference is that the p2p commoners do not experience a direct constraints,
>>>> as this finitude is externalised unto others  (unlike  the communities
>>>> expropriated of their land to make space for energy plants to power servers
>>>> that are necessary for an increasing number of p2p cyber-commoners to write
>>>> open software and of web surfer to download and browse stuff . . .)
>>>>
>>>> massimo
>>>>   On 26 Feb 2010, at 08:50, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   exactly Patrick, this means that, barring more precise definitions,
>>>> P2P Commons are indeed limited to a specific type of commons, where this is
>>>> possible, but there can be many other commons, like the ones that need to
>>>> restrict access and usage.
>>>>
>>>> I can imagine a category of peer-informed commons, where despite the
>>>> need for access control, equipotential value is respected
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>> > a P2P commons would have to consists of:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > open and free input, no exclusions or a priori control of
>>>>> contributions
>>>>> >
>>>>> > participation in governance by all contributors
>>>>> >
>>>>> > universal availability
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you mean by "no exclusions" and "universal availability" when
>>>>> speaking of the finite resources in a physical commons?
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you saying access/admission and use across time must be
>>>>> unconditional and infinite in duration?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not everybody can use the oven at once.  How will we schedule and
>>>>> allocate these material assets?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or any attempt to schedule or allocate automatically disqualify us
>>>>> from being either P2P or from being a commons?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>>>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Commoning at lists.wissensallmende.de
>>>> http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

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