[p2p-research] [Commoning] Am I missing any commons?

Fri Feb 26 11:20:47 CET 2010

Massimo, the p2p people that I know, are all precarious and very well aware
of the p2p dependencies, and most of them are very active in building the
necessary new infrastructures, based on different social relations ... of
course, most of them may not be shouting against capitalism in rallies, but
their contributions are just as crucial; most of them are immensely more
grounded and embodied than old style activists ...

as for creating broad alliances by harping on class, good luck with that,
but I have seen scant evidence of that working, except in the phone booths
where the trots are arguing about the right path ... I see more value and
strength in the internetworking of all the initiatives that are already
creating the world of tomorrow, (of course, we talk about class, but it is
counterproductive to frame it totally in such a way)

you will note that at least in the work of the p2p foundation, p2p is NOT
about cyberspace, but about the knowledge, code and design commons that
intersect with concrete physical communities and their real needs

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Massimo De Angelis <
m.deangelis at ntlworld.com> wrote:

> all I am saying is that it is time for the p2p movement to recognise more
> the contradictions it is founded on (and reproduce) and acknowledge its
> heavy dependence on the "tangible" realm -- and begin to build more concrete
> bridges, and  . . .
>
> hey, no need for state metering of cyberspace, on the contrary . . . but
> maybe your foundation can set up a  "crowd-funding" mechanism to pool money
> from cyber users to help communities in struggles around issue of land and
> enclosures on the "tangible" realm, making the point that with "great powers
> come great responsibilities" and p2p need to recognise their dependence on
> others, and that although they can do very much to help us in "hampering
> innovation" etc, it is not innovation that will save us in the context of a
> boundless regime of accumulation .. .maybe the very moment you begin to set
> up a mechanism to pool resources in this way, you open up the debate over
> inter-dependence and the cost of this inter-dependence.  . .maybe you will
> be alienating many p2p activists, who just want to do their stuff, maybe so,
> but maybe this is necessary, because saying and doing the "right" things
> always create *class *lines anew, redefining class as a new common ground
> . .maybe is time to do precisely  this, and we need all the creativity and
> ingenuity of p2p, but without the body of our relation to the earth and one
> another in reproduction, p2p is as much as part of the problem than of the
> solution . . .
>
> best
>
> massimo
>
>
> On 26 Feb 2010, at 09:46, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>
> I agree, but unless you suggest that we meter the internet to pay for these
> externalities, we have to protect the open and free input and access of the
> cyber commons
>
> in fact, the universal sharing of technological innovations is just as
> crucial for saving our biosphere, as the capitalist market artificial
> scarcity engineering and waste-abundance engineering, and hampering of
> innovation, must be radically reversed
>
> and if thus a radical re-orientation of social relations will be necessary,
> if we have to wait for full communism to save the earth, we might as well
> hang ourselves,
>
> Michel
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Massimo De Angelis <
> m.deangelis at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Sure
>>
>> but "pragmatically" currently implies that the "public or private
>> infrastructures" are unable to avoid us 4 degree global warming -- see
>> latest research on climate change during COP15 -- not to talk about the
>> implications for local communities in my previous email . .
>>
>> there is no way to deal with the desirable development of cyber p2p
>> without at the same time posing the urgent need to change social relations
>> of production with respect to land and other "tangible" means of production
>> . . .there is no "pragmatism" that can save us from ecological and social
>> doom, no p2p great discovery . . .ultimately, there are only three things :
>> our relation to "land", to "land", to "land" (and therefore to one another)
>> .. .
>>
>> best
>>
>> massimo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 26 Feb 2010, at 09:23, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>
>> I agree, but pragmatically it is possible to have open and free input and
>> universal access to digital and knowledge resources, with the externalities
>> taken care of by the public or private infrastructures
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Massimo De Angelis <
>> m.deangelis at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> please note
>>>
>>> finite resources ALSO apply to non physical commons -- the only
>>> difference is that the p2p commoners do not experience a direct constraints,
>>> as this finitude is externalised unto others  (unlike  the communities
>>> expropriated of their land to make space for energy plants to power servers
>>> that are necessary for an increasing number of p2p cyber-commoners to write
>>> open software and of web surfer to download and browse stuff . . .)
>>>
>>> massimo
>>> On 26 Feb 2010, at 08:50, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>
>>> exactly Patrick, this means that, barring more precise definitions, P2P
>>> Commons are indeed limited to a specific type of commons, where this is
>>> possible, but there can be many other commons, like the ones that need to
>>> restrict access and usage.
>>>
>>> I can imagine a category of peer-informed commons, where despite the need
>>> for access control, equipotential value is respected
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>> > a P2P commons would have to consists of:
>>>> >
>>>> > open and free input, no exclusions or a priori control of
>>>> contributions
>>>> >
>>>> > participation in governance by all contributors
>>>> >
>>>> > universal availability
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What do you mean by "no exclusions" and "universal availability" when
>>>> speaking of the finite resources in a physical commons?
>>>>
>>>> Are you saying access/admission and use across time must be
>>>> unconditional and infinite in duration?
>>>>
>>>> Not everybody can use the oven at once.  How will we schedule and
>>>> allocate these material assets?
>>>>
>>>> Or any attempt to schedule or allocate automatically disqualify us
>>>> from being either P2P or from being a commons?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Patrick
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Commoning at lists.wissensallmende.de
>>> http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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